Actually success from a site DOES come from a listing. It can give the boost needed to make the top 10 for a keyword as opposed to top 100. DMOZ is an attempt to regulate the internet for better or worse. It gives control of who ranks where to a central entity. An elite club if you will. Of people who help determine what sites deserve to be seen. This can often lead to eradication of worthless spam pages, and provide a support structure for purposeful sites. Or can lead to major abuse by groups of editors with less than savory goals. There is an unbelievable amount of corruption going on at DMOZ. Unbelievable. Some editors went so far as to offer a listing on e-bay. They were quickly banished of course, but that is not to say under-the-table transactions do not occur. Aside from many editors having a stake in the industry, (why else become a volunteer editor for DMOZ unless you want YOUR site listed) the lack of payment merely BREEDS corruption for payoffs. They could atleast have a paid inclusion system like Yahoo's so everyone gets a fair shake at the transaction.
No, really it doesn't - the contribution of a DMOZ link is greatly overestimated. There may well be those within DMOZ who believe that they have that power or influence but it doesn't make it so. Again, really an overstatement. I am an ardent critic of DMOZ but it doesn't help to make sweeping accusations like this - it only allows the DMOZ apologists to brand all critics as ranting maniacs and it unfairly paints those DMOZ editors who do have integrity with the same brush.
There is an unbelievably small amount of corruption going on at DMOZ compared to that alleged in webmaster forums. There have been areas more prone to corruption and the evidence is contained in editor removals but the vast majority is clean. If you have evidence to the contrary then report it. If proven then something will be done about it - it works, I have reported abuse and editors have been removed. Interesting that whenever abuse is mentioned it is always by editors. 99.9% of the abuse in DMOZ is by webmasters attempting to get spam listed by increasingly devious means, and when they succeed in duping an editor and someone notices, oooh oooh oooh, the editor must be corrupt. And corruption - there are many more times more bribes offered than taken and even when taken you have a corrupt editor and a corrupt webmaster involved, not just a corrupt editor. Yet you see very little criticism here or on any other forum about abusive and corrupt webmasters. And some treat the corrupt webmasters as some kind of heroes for beating the system. A little balance from time to time would be nice! [edit: thanks for that note of balance above minstrel] For most it is a hobby they enjoy doing. Not everything everyone does has to be for profit
The question is why do people feel the need to bribe? For what ever reason, right or wrong people believe that being listed in DMOZ, help their business and in the same time there is no procedures or rules for obtaining this desired prize, is it then any wonder that people will try bribe or any other method to achieve their goals? Let's take this to real life, in Europe or Canada, if you want to build a house, you will fill the forms and get your building permit, you go to telephone company and you will get your telephone line but if you want to do the same thing in many third world countries with corrupt government and no real procedures, you have to bribe everyone working in those offices to get your permits. Whose fault is it, a government that is corrupt and have no procedures or people who have to bribe to get a permit? DMOZ problems are caused by DMOZ, anything else is just natural consequence of organizational failure.
There are so many versions of reality being put forward here I hardly know what to think, but I must admit gworld, yours is the cutest! Just think of it, following this line of reasoning, if my mailbox collects too many bills I can just go rob a bank to get the money to pay them. (And it's ok!) It's brilliant! The existance of a problem justifies a corrupt solution.
Good... point made! Alternate realities leading to conclusions that are pure nonsense. You're very good at illustrating how we can start with facts and end up with a disconnected pile of silliness. Always a pleasure.
What point was that? Are you denying the influence of environment on individual behavior? Why there is so much violence in ghettos? Is it because children born in ghettos are different than other children or is it because of the environment that they grow up in? You can not make an organization that has no rules or procedures and then complain why it becomes a breeding ground for abuse. I did not say that corruption or abuse was good, I stated that corruption and abuse are NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of organizational failures in DMOZ.
No, I'm not denying the influence of environment on individual behavior, but I am disagreeing with your conclusion that the influence will necessarily be bad. I also disagree that a person must turn to corruption in a less than ideal environment. Also, if a person choses to turn to corruption, their environment is in no way a valid excuse. The luxury of free-will allows us to spend our life working toward the improvement of anything we don't like. To do anything less will make you part of the cause of the bad environment, it does not excuse your bad behavior. It's not always easy doing the right thing, but it always feels better.
So do you mean children who grow up in ghetto with violence and drug, usually decide to become a priest or do you mean because of DMOZ organization failure that enables abuse of the system, people will decide to be honest? This is not about moral judgement and if corruption is good or bad, it is about the fact that corruption and abuse are NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of organizational failures in DMOZ.
I also had many submissions not yet appearing on DMOZ. I know resolve to submit and forget. I have had successes in the past so I won't feel too bad about it.
Of course not, that's just silly. Are you saying only priest's are good? Are you saying people can never grow up in a ghetto and turn out good? I believe it depends on an individual's values and personal integrity... or lack of. Money is not what makes a person good or bad. So now the circle is complete. Shall we agree to disagree? Or would you like me to quietly sit back and watch you run around in a circle chasing your tail?
I think that compostannie and gworld should just admit that they are in love and quite arguing... (I'm kidding, although I think you two secretly like each other ...)
haha.. let the love begin.. The way PR is getting hype is the same as getting a DMOZ link which to me is not the end of the world if I don't get them (high PR and a DMOZ link)
um, I don't want to like him, but I do. He reminds me of my deceased dad. Boy he was an ornery old coot!
Why do they feel the need to spam? Shortcut to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow people are promised from Internet. I suppose that is the fault of DMOZ too? What organisation is that then? Doesn't sound like DMOZ to me. DMOZ is an academic non-profit making volunteer activity and structured around that type of activity. That isn't a failure but by design. What makes it attractive as something to abuse and corrupt is nothing to do with the project; it is to do with vastly overrated assumptions by gullible webmasters that it is somehow a magic bullet in the Google page rank stakes. So "corruption and abuse are NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of organizational failures in" Google. Go target them... DMOZ didn't ask Google to build DMOZ into their algorythms, why blame DMOZ? In fact it is a pain in the bloody arse and most editors would welcome its removal from any Google calculations. Ah, DMOZ is a far softer target and Google would tell you to go stick your head down the nearest lavatory pan and tell you to mind your own business over how they work out their algorythms. Maybe the answer is to force editors to undergo financial checks and ensure they don't come from third world countries to make sure they aren't tempted.
Rules and procedures are meaningless if they're not followed or applied consistently. Until Adult is brought into line with the rest of the Directory - and monitored and enforced like the rest of the directory - it sounds exactly like DMOZ to me. And before the flaming starts (no I don't mean brizzie here), I am not suggesting that all editors are corrupt or even that all Adult editors are corrupt - but as long as that mess they call Adult exists, the rot does rain on the good editors as well as the bad.
Just because it is an academic non-profit volunteer activity, as an organization it must have a higher standard than commercial organizations to raise it above any suspicion of abuse and wrongdoing. Being a volunteer activity should not be used as excuse for every failure. This is not a question about volunteers, it is a question about the organization. Let's look at real life organizations, for example a bank. Do they make an extensive financial background for every employee or do they just trust the employees to be honest? No. Instead they use bank vaults, money counting procedures and .... to ensure no matter who they hire or what the person intentions are, there will be no possibility of abuse. Similar check and balances can be introduced in DMOZ listing procedures that will minimize the abuse and in the same time opens the doors to accepting many more and real volunteers.