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Atheists: Please Explain the Miracle of Lanciano!

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Angelic, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. #1
    The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano.

    When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood.

    Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral.

    Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world.

    At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically.

    Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena.

    Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of "miraculous flesh and blood." He presented his findings on March 4, 1971.

    His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB.

    Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that "as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue."

    In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that "the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions."

    "The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%," Linoli said.

    Linoli's analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered.
    SEMrush
    Linoli's report was published in "Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori" in 1971.

    In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor's conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.

    The extract of the scientific research of WHO's medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science's inability to explain the phenomenon.


    Source: http://www.zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano
    http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html
    http://www.michaeljournal.org/eucharist3.htm
    http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

    Why is it that you atheists find it so difficult to believe that a higher power exists?
     
    Angelic, Sep 26, 2011 IP
    SEMrush
  2. The Webby

    The Webby Peon

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    #2
    Why is that you religious find yourself so compelled to convince everyone that a higher power exists?

    why can't you keep your faith to yourself, and be happy?
     
    The Webby, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  3. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Illustrious Member

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    #3
    @Angelic
    I warned you in a previous post what would happen.Wether you are Christian or Muslim the regulars on P&R will attempt to chase you out.I on the other hand support anyone's right to celebrate their faith.Good luck to you on here,you will be tested.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  4. The Webby

    The Webby Peon

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    #4
    Me wonders how a post titled: "Atheists: Please Explain the Miracle of Lanciano!" and ending with the line: "Why is it that you atheists find it so difficult to believe that a higher power exists?" is anyone celebrating their faith..

    It looks like a blatant 'in your face' question that is asking for a discussion, ending with them trying to shove their faith in my mouth... Priceless

    But hey, what do I know, I'm an atheist fool....
     
    The Webby, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  5. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Illustrious Member

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    #5
    @The Webby
    Can't respond Webby,I've got mod tape on my mouth.:)
     
    Spoiltdiva, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  6. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #6

    So here we are again, where you think you are defending someone just celebrating their religion, when in actuality, what is plain from the title is that they are not celebrating but challenging Atheists.

    Then when the Atheists dare to directly answer, you say they are chasing her out. What part of posting a challenge to Atheists on a forum did you think warrants silence or demands agreement?

    Get over yourself. You really are a troll, you are not here contributing anything, but just insulting people who are participating in PR.

    You are the very thing you claim to despise.

    As to the OP, it sounds like a bunch of totally unsupported hooey.

    Are you inept? You can't reply without insulting someone? You bitch and whine more than anyone I have ever seen on this forum.
     
    browntwn, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  7. Seqqa

    Seqqa Well-Known Member

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    #7
    Reminds me of this.

    [video=youtube;hikJk0nnXjk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hikJk0nnXjk[/video]

    [video=youtube;Ja09AO5TocA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja09AO5TocA[/video]
     
    Seqqa, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  8. Bushranger

    Bushranger Well-Known Member

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    #8
    Well I'm not an atheist but if the OP still believes in the shroud then that explains why he thinks Lanciano is a 'miracle'. The shroud was proven to be fake in 1988 and made big news worldwide. Nobody puts faith in its authenticity except the people who fear independent thought. The miracle is that anybody still thinks the shroud is real after the poorest of poor excuse they gave after the proven fake in the last test results (the test must have been done on a repair carried out in the 14th century, ha). How about you convince the owners to re-test it using today's much more precise technology...too scared to be proven wrong for certain?
     
    Bushranger, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  9. Angelic

    Angelic Active Member

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    #9
    1988 CARBON-14 TEST REFUTED

    Several studies have challenged the validity of the 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs.

    1. A Jan 20, 2005 paper in the professional journal ThermoChimica Acta by Dr. Ray Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory and lead chemist with the original science team STURP (the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, involving approximately 35 scientists directly examining the Shroud for five days), has proven conclusively that the sample cut from The Shroud of Turin in 1988 was taken from an area of the cloth that was re-woven during the middle ages. Here are some excerpts:

    "Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud."

    "The shroud was badly damaged in a church fire in 1532 AD. Nuns patched burn holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing cloth that is now known as the Holland cloth." This probably occurred in 1534.

    "As part of the shroud of turin research project (STURP), I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud and associated textiles in 1978." "It enabled direct chemical testing on recovered linen fibers and particulates".

    "If the shroud had been produced between 1260 and 1390 AD, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in 1260 AD would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978... The Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens gave the test [i.e. tested positive] for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes. The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported."

    "The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low... therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot." "The cloth's center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact." "Different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas. No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test [i.e. tested positive]." "The lignin on shroud samples and on samples from the Dead Sea scrolls does not give the test [i.e. tests negative]."

    "Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test [i.e. test negative], the cloth must be quite old." "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years."

    "A gum/dye/mordant [(for affixing dye)] coating is easy to observe on... radiocarbon [sample] yarns. No other part of the shroud shows such a coating." "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed. Dyeing was probably done intentionally on pristine replacement material to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth." "The dye found on the radiocarbon sample was not used in Europe before about 1291 AD and was not common until more than 100 years later." "Specifically, the color and distribution of the coating implies that repairs were made at an unknown time with foreign linen dyed to match the older original material." "The consequence of this conclusion is that the radiocarbon sample was not representative of the original cloth."

    "The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud."

    "A significant amount of charred cellulose was removed during a restoration of the shroud in 2002." "A new radiocarbon analysis should be done on the charred material retained from the 2002 restoration."

    Raymond N. Rogers. 20 January 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, Issue 1-2, Pages 189-194.

    2. The Fire-Model Tests of Dr. Dmitri Kouznetsov in 1994 and Drs. John Jackson and Propp in 1998, which replicated the famous Fire of 1532, demonstrate that the fire added carbon isotopes to the linen.

    3. Dr. Leoncio Garza-Valdes (microbiologist) discovered a bioplastic coating of bacteria and fungus on the linen fibers (60% by weight) caused by living microbes that absorb and add C-14 to the Cloth and thereby skew the date by at least 1300 years. These microbes were not known at the time of the test and were not removed by the C-14 cleaning protocol.

    4. Consistent problems with the dating of linens (Egyptian Bull Mummy; Mummy 1770 Manchester Museum; Ibis Bird Mummy) call the accuracy of linen testing into question.

    Source: http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html
     
    Angelic, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  10. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Illustrious Member

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    #10
    Brownee,no I'm not insulting anyone,merely giving my opinion.I mean this is a forum afterall.I fail to see why you get so angry.It's just the net brownee,relax....for real.:)
     
    Spoiltdiva, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  11. The Webby

    The Webby Peon

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    #11
    I don't understand any of the shit you posted.. Would you please explain it to me in a layman language. Thanks mate..
     
    The Webby, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  12. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #12
    Because only stupid people believe in this nonsense. Can you prove the flesh or the blood at any time has been anything but the flesh or the blood? Should we accept the work of some crook priest that the blood was water 1000 years ago? I don´t recommend believing the word of priest, too many little boys did that and we all know what happened to them.
     
    gworld, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  13. Bushranger

    Bushranger Well-Known Member

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    #13
    All that 'proof' yet they still won't submit it to actual testing. Don't you find that even slightly strange? They move the argument from trying to prove the shroud's authenticity to questioning the authenticity of carbon-dating.

    They put it to the test of science, science says it's a fake so now they won't allow it to be resubjected to more precise technology, because it must be a fake just as science concluded.

    ADDED QUOTE I FOUND: The Gospel account of the resurrection of Jesus in the book of John Chapter 20 verses 6 & 7 mentions bandages (plural) that were around Jesus body, with the one cloth wrapped that was around his head separately rolled up on it's own. Therefore, holy scripture does not support a singular cloth / shroud around Jesus that was marked by his resurrection.

    FTR: I'm not a bible fan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
    Bushranger, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  14. Angelic

    Angelic Active Member

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    #14
    "6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen." (John 20:6-7)

    The linen refers to the Shroud of Turin, while the other cloth refers to the Sudarium of Oviedo:
    http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm
    Blood stains on both the Sudarium and the Shroud belongs to the same group AB.

    Anyway, my thread is about the Miracle of Lanciano; Any comment? What about the 500 examinations done by the World Health Organization?
     
    Angelic, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  15. The Webby

    The Webby Peon

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    #15
    Few questions mate..

    ~ Who the heck is Linoli?
    ~ Can you link me to the reports of finding of the experiments done by WHO. (Links should be from WHO, not a propaganda site, thanks)
    ~ Let's just say it is human cardiovascular tissues and blood, how is it proved that it was indeed something else before, like wine?
     
    The Webby, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  16. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

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    #16
    Unless I observed the event in person, there would be no benefit in commenting on it. So ...
     
    Blogmaster, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  17. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #17

    That's not fair. How can them come up with a report for a group that doesn't even exist? This I think it is somewhat comical that people who have faith, feel the strong need to prove to others, that they too should have faith, but using fake and made up facts. It seems to have opposite effect.
     
    browntwn, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  18. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #18
    WTF ? Is this for real ?

    I just had a glance over the net and there is nothing that debunked this .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  19. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

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    #19
    Did they have video in 800?
     
    Blogmaster, Sep 26, 2011 IP
  20. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #20
    No but we have carbon dating and spectroscopy . One of the things that jumped up in my face was the fact the there where no preservatives found in the chemical structure of the flesh and blood . It seems impossible to me to preserve a human heart for 1200 years , even in a sealed environment flesh is attacked by anaerobic bacteria and rapidly degraded . Even mummification requires preservatives or processes that alter the chemical structure i.e. smoking the meat .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Sep 26, 2011 IP