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Are Nested Table Layouts That Bad

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by ramnet, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. Masterful

    Masterful Well-Known Member

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    #21
    It's not easier to work with tables; it's harder. Much harder. You will realise that once you make the transition.

    You must stop using tables for layouts. It's old-fashioned and amateurish. CSS is so much more powerful and versatile.

    I realise that you are set in your ways, which is why you think it's easier to work with tables. But it's time you moved on.

    These days, people who still use tables get laughed at. In fact, when I look at my old work, it embarrasses me. Just like you, I was late to make the transition.

    Once you make the transition, you will feel the same. You will hate tables. Your work will be so much neater and cleaner. You will be happy that you moved on.
     
    Masterful, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  2. ramnet

    ramnet Peon

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    #22
    Well a template engine solves that problem - either generated pages in real time or pre-generated. Numerous tools like that exist (and I even wrote one).

    ----

    The responses are very good - thanks for humoring me if I'm a few years late (I still haven't gone to XHTML or even "HTML Strict" yet either so....yeah).

    I've got about as far using CSS as border, font, color changes - and rollover hyperlinks :cool: ....but I've still got a long way to go yet before I stop using <big> and <small> (yes, it's called HTML 3.2 :D - I'm about 15 years behind the curve) :eek:

    I don't think tables aren't that bad - frames, yes - but tables? not really.

    I'll give up my tables when the last traces of IE6 leave the internet in 2015 or whatever...
     
    ramnet, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  3. myst_dg

    myst_dg Active Member

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    #23
    Not that hard actually. Force yourself to read some tutorials, type all the example codes by hand. It'll take much less time to get into CSS than you imagined if you really do go ahead.

    I saw several times you said you've been coding for 12 years. In fact it's not worth mentioning. Sorry, but no offense. If you don't keep pace with the times, you'll definitely be eliminated sooner or later. Just like wd_2k6 said, you might not get paid.

    However, mastering tables for layouts is still great. In some cases we have to do this shitty work, for example ebay templates, vbulletin skins, or whatever.

    Good luck.


    Leo
     
    myst_dg, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  4. ramnet

    ramnet Peon

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    #24
    No - I'd do that with an image map :D

    Much less code than what's there now :cool: - easier too.
     
    ramnet, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  5. goliath

    goliath Active Member

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    #25
    Way to be part of the problem!

    I'm reminded of the people who always say "I'm going to quit smoking when the price goes up". Didn't you say that before the LAST time the price went up?

    When IE6 is gone, you'll be saying "well IE11 Still suports tables, they can't be that bad!" :rolleyes:

    Tables are not for layout. Just because you can drive a nail with a wrench doesn't make it "just as good as a hammer" and anyone who tells you it's "better than a hammer for most nails" is clearly delusional.

    If ALL YOU HAVE is a wrench, then you drive your nail with it. If someone walks up and hands you a hammer, would your eally tell them "I'm too old to learn how to use a hammer" and keep going with the wrench?

    You'll spend more time missing and bending nails with the wrench than you will learning to use a hammer.

    BTW I'm relaxing my challenge on the first page of this thread. No takers yet, I'll allow 3x the character count of my code. Offer remains open for 24 hours from this posting.
     
    goliath, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  6. goliath

    goliath Active Member

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    #26
    Completely off topic, but yes you could for that layout.

    However an image map wouldn't allow you to animate each icon individually, which I'm considering. Can you add mouseover effects to particular sections or just the whole map? I have almost never worked with them.

    Topic of the thread is tables <> CSS though :p
     
    goliath, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  7. jamesicus

    jamesicus Peon

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    #27
    Don't bother with XHTML -- use HTML 4.01 (strict) Markup for now -- gradually migrate to HTML 5 as elements and attributes become stable and viable. Reference: Problems serving XHTML 1.0 Web Pages

    Always use strict Doctypes. Reference: Activating Browser Modes with Doctype

    James
     
    jamesicus, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  8. ramnet

    ramnet Peon

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    #28
    It's not that IE6 supports tables (I should hope they will always be supported by everybody) - the problem is IE6 doesn't do CSS very well....and I'm too lazy to make a hack just to please the people too dumb to upgrade to IE7/IE8 or something Gecko/WebKit based. Try using "content:" in IE6 and you'll see my point - I've heard much worse than that breaks in IE6

    Thanks....that should be easy enough to do :D
     
    ramnet, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  9. jamesicus

    jamesicus Peon

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    #29
    IE6 may be around a lot longer than most people think. It appears to be the default graphical Browser for a great number of Library Systems, Academic Institutions. Governmental Agencies and Research Facilities - Worldwide - whose Budgetary restraints often preclude hardware and software upgrading.

    James
     
    jamesicus, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  10. goliath

    goliath Active Member

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    #30
    Yes, and as I said only somewhat sarcstically before, you are part of that problem.

    Upgrades from IE6 are FREE. Jamesicus, that confuses most people who may not understand the institutional costs of changing and supporting a widely used configuration, but that's the deal.

    When things DON'T WORK in IE6 any more, the business people will upgrade. Or to put that more clearly:

    As long as so many web designers and programmers pander to IE6 it will NEVER EVER GO AWAY! Screw the thousands of man-hours wasted on IE6 compatibility because a large company "can't afford to upgrade". When the CEO can't read his webcomics because the page won't render they'll get that shit upgraded.

    I'm sorry dude, but you're wallowing in a self-serving puddle of circular logic. I don't mean to come off like I'm attacking you personally but this attitude is widespread and it makes it very hard for us (the internet as a community) to move ahead. I'm sooo tired of seeing it when there are whole generations of people coming to the internet being confused and thinking it's some sort of completely emotional or personal preference debate like "coke vs. pepsi".

    PUT DOWN THE WRENCH, AND STEP AWAY FROM THE CODE!
     
    goliath, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  11. jamesicus

    jamesicus Peon

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    #31
    I think a lot of the cost burden is perceived to be in multi-computer installation and adaptation of intranet (in-house usage) applications. Of course, I am as anxious as any other Web Author/Developer/User to see the demise of IE6 (and all the problems attending its use) - but unfortunately I think it is going to be with us for some time to come. Individual Web authors will have to decide whether their IE6 user base is sufficient to warrant accommodating that Browser in their Web page production -- all the while attempting to educate their users in the desirability of adopting better (standards compliant) graphical Browsers.

    Added by Edit: Of course, the greatest shortcoming of the IE6 Browser (other IE Browsers also, but particularly IE6) is that it does not recognize documents served as MIME (content) type application/xhtml+xml thereby making it incapable of rendering true XHTML pages -- that is why just about all present XHTML pages (which are served as MIME type text/html) are really just HTML documents with no XML functionality. Another great shortcoming is the different CSS Box model employed by IE Browsers.

    James
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2009
    jamesicus, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  12. goliath

    goliath Active Member

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    #32
    I agree with you entirely. I re-read my last post and I was unclear that most of that dialog was for ramnet. I would love to know what kind of sites he builds.

    Only the one point for you that most people don't understand why large institutions can't afford to upgrade when the software itself is free.

    I used to work for a very large corporation (10k+ employees) and I was so glad that we got to maintain our own PCs in my dev group. If you are technically knowledgeable or even just a "power user" of your OS it is terribly frustrating to have to use out of date tools because of compliance issues and the IT group "not having the budget/staff to support multiple configurations".

    The comment about the CEO's webcomics was not a joke, except in this case it was the president of the company starting a blog, and using some plugin that IE5 couldn't support several years ago.
     
    goliath, Oct 4, 2009 IP
  13. sorryle

    sorryle Peon

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    #33
    yeah, i agree, this topic is an old one:) it'll make your code redundant, slow the page loading.
     
    sorryle, Oct 5, 2009 IP
  14. togu25

    togu25 Peon

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    #34
    Yes i agree with you...always using CSS for any site!
     
    togu25, Oct 5, 2009 IP
  15. leenguyen

    leenguyen Peon

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    #35
    tables are just made for showing data... tables were never made for layout.. always try to separate logics... markup (X)HTML and CSS ( presentation ) ...
    If you create a page in table-based... and you show your table-based page to a developer.. then he/she will definitely go mad... it will be very tough time for him/her to continue work...
     
    leenguyen, Oct 5, 2009 IP
  16. dulcificum

    dulcificum Active Member

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    #36
    I like the way this moron hasn't bothered to try and defend her idiotic incompetence...
     
    dulcificum, Oct 5, 2009 IP
  17. goliath

    goliath Active Member

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    #37
    Ouch, This post makes me want to apologize for my tone getting a little condescending here. Specifically to ramnet. We're all out here doing what we can.

    I feel strongly about this, and when people come around spouting off that they're "old-timers" or "professionals" or in some sort of authoritative position and then give bad advice or start repeating outdated and illogical arguments it drives me up the wall.

    I don't know who, but someone put it very well in another thread:

    I'll just try and stay out of these constantly recurring threads :)
     
    goliath, Oct 5, 2009 IP
  18. ramnet

    ramnet Peon

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    #38
    Interesting arguments.

    I think for now I'll just migrate to using table based layouts with css colors/fonts/margins/borders/etc - that seems like a good compromise - most of the design is separated, but it's still compatible enough with the older stuff.

    one step at a time.....
     
    ramnet, Oct 6, 2009 IP
  19. dulcificum

    dulcificum Active Member

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    #39
    What's so hard about ditching tables? Just do it all at once, there's no excuse. Frankly, anyone who's not a total moron can cope with CSS fine.
     
    dulcificum, Oct 6, 2009 IP
  20. My220x

    My220x Member

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    #40
    The only browsers which don't support the CSS needed to achieve most table based layouts are ones which no one uses any more.
     
    My220x, Oct 6, 2009 IP