Are all men really equal?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by stOx, Apr 21, 2008.

  1. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #21
    The difference is, you can sue a Dr. for malpractice, or fire your accountant if he screws up.

    By giving me political power over you because I have a greater intelligence, you have signed away your right to self-determination, for good.

    This is why I advocate free markets. Choices are important. They are freedom.

    Story of my life mate.
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  2. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #22
    What if you aren't smart enough, and your vote is weighted downward?

    The "in the end it will be better" reminds me of what I hear people saying now as the post 9/11 police state is being constructed around them.

    Trading liberty for security, and ending up with neither.
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  3. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

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    #23
    yeah there is that, But they are still the most qualified people to do it and they are the people we go to when we want those services done. If we go to certain individuals to do things based on their ability to do it in so many aspects of life i don't see why we shouldn't put decision making in the hands of those most qualified to do it.

    Because even if they do mess up, They are less likely to mess up that someone who isn't qualified or equipped to do it.
     
    stOx, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  4. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #24
    What if the state raises the bar?

    What if the state doesn't provide the means to learn basic principles?

    What if the state decides to permanently strike them from the voter rolls?

    What if the state decides to vote on changing from a democracy to a feudal society?

    They have no voice. They cannot participate. And by handing over that which was fought for, at such great cost, they may lose it once again.

    I'm no fan of democracy, but for god's sake people, you're talking about (in some cases) giving up your own right to vote because you acknowledge you may not be smart enough to do so! Think this through!
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  5. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #25
    This is so very sad. I don't think I can say much more. People are willing to trade what little free will they have, because they feel they are inferior.

    Really depressing. Maybe that is the future. A trade of self-determination in return for a well taken care of servant/peasant class, and an elite intellectual class.
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  6. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

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    #26
    There are areas where we all feel inferior when it comes to performing a task. I am inferior to a mechanic when it comes to fixing a car, I am inferior to a vet when it comes to helping a sick dog. Just this morning i was inferior to a dry cleaners when i took my suit to be cleaned. Some people just happen to be inferior when it comes to picking the right public officials.
     
    stOx, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  7. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #27
    But the analogy doesn't hold, because what you are proposing means that free will is gone. The voter doesn't get a second chance. It's the same idea that kept women from voting, except instead of determining by sex, you're determining by intelligence. It's still discriminatory, but the justification is utilitarian.

    And under iul's idea, there is no way to guarantee that the certification process for a voter doesn't become the equivalent of a dog chasing it's tail. Once the ruling class has power, they are not likely to hand it back or share it.

    I gotta stop posting to this thread. It's so disheartening for someone who wants to see more liberty, self-determination, freedom, that there are people who will rationalize self slavery and/or oppression.
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  8. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

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    #28
    I do wish that everybody was smart enough to be trusted with a vote, Maybe one day they will be and the voting class will grow, But the fact is at present most people shouldn't have a say because they are either too ill-informed or are simply too dumb.

    Wouldn't it be nice if elections looked less like American idol and big brother and more like an election? think how the potential presidents would change if they had to appeal to the top 10% only and none of the mindless majority.
     
    stOx, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  9. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #29
    We exclude Americans under 18 years of age from voting. Do you think a 16 yr. old be allowed to vote? If so, what about a 10 yr. old? Why do we exclude them?
     
    Rebecca, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  10. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

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    #30
    Good point. We already exclude people because they lack the intellectual capacity to understand issues. If an adult has the intellectual capacity of a 16 year old why should they be allowed to vote?
     
    stOx, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  11. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #31
    For over 200 years people from oppressive, poor, restrictive, despotic nations have been coming to the United States for opportunity and freedom.

    The right to vote in an election that is assumed to allow freedom of choice is one of those attractive qualities.

    There are no reasons to restrict people from the right to vote.

    Of course, for some f**ked up reason Congress over many years and this president very recently don't want the people of Washington DC to have a voting Senator and member of the House.

    It is a fundamental attractiveness of the nation.
     
    earlpearl, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  12. Lexiseek

    Lexiseek Banned

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    #32
    Hell no people aren't "equal". Just take a look at your paycheck and figure that one out.
     
    Lexiseek, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  13. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #33
    Ironic you would have the flag as an avatar, and then post about wage equality.

    Your wage isn't equal because the work we do is not all equal.
     
    guerilla, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  14. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #34
    If we did this right now in the USA, Hilary would have to quit, she wouldn't have half the votes that obama does.....
     
    debunked, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  15. sweetsara

    sweetsara Peon

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    #35
    And you wouldn't be able to vote
     
    sweetsara, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  16. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #36
    If you are going by IQ, then I would be fine. If going by residency - I was born here and am an American. (you know, the great satan USA?)
     
    debunked, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  17. Lexiseek

    Lexiseek Banned

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    #37
    Yes, I know. I also don't feel that people's wages should be equal.
     
    Lexiseek, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  18. iul

    iul Well-Known Member

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    #38
    there could be some rules to prevent that. Here's how I think the system should be like:

    -voting should be made mandatory for every person over 18. (it's already like that in Singapore, Cyprus, Austria, Belgium and maybe other countries too)
    -if you don't show up at the polls you get a fine (let's say 100$ or euros)
    -if you do show up at the polls but fail the test you get a fine (let's say 50$ or euro)
    That will be an incentive both for people to go to vote and to get themselfs better educated about the political system, law system, what rights they have, etc. in their country

    The test:
    -the test would consist of a total of 1000 possible (or maybe less) questions that would be released to the public (with the correct answers too) a few months before the elections
    -before you can vote you take the test (let's say 20 questions) each with 5 options where all, none or any number (from 1 to 5) of answers could be correct

    the right to vote by itself doesn't guarantee you anything. You need to be informed about stuff to see what's really happening to be able to protect your freedoms. You can take what's been happening in your own country in the last few years as a very good example of this. Lots of people don't even realise they are being screwed by your leaders, so how are they supposed to protect themselfs from that if they're too busy watching american idol but have no ideea what rights are guaranteed to them by your constitution?
     
    iul, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  19. Codythebest

    Codythebest Notable Member

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    #39
    Yes, we're all equal, the riches more though...
     
    Codythebest, Apr 21, 2008 IP
  20. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #40
    That's perfectly okay with me.

    Liberty is guarded and preserved by the strong willed, the smart and the intelligent.
    Not the foolish and the stupid.

    Excellent point.
     
    lightless, Apr 21, 2008 IP