Isn't this conversation so much better since it's personal? We could have been talking about ideas instead of people but you have this obsession with making everything personal. I debate ideas. I don't debate people like you have an obsession with doing. That's why I don't name names. Religious and political discussions are about ideas. Not the people who have them. Obviously. I can tell by your tone that this doesn't upset you at all. I mean it was only the crowning moment of their entire wedding and every LDS friend and family member of theirs was allowed to be there. But not anyone who wasn't LDS. What Mormon person have I talked about? We're talking about your brother because you brought him up. You could have just talked about the ceremony in general like I was doing but you decided to make it personal. A samaritan did the same thing. The Mormon church does a good job making people hate religion as you do. Not only do a lot of people who leave the church end up hating religion, but some people who get too attached to a member start to hate religion because it forces them to convert or go their seperate ways. They witness the ostricization first hand that the church forces on them simply because they aren't LDS. Your brother judged every woman who was not LDS not worthy to marry him because he wanted a temple ceremony. Which you think is "no big deal." Only a Mormon could marry him because of that "minor" detail. That "no big deal" has ended more perfectly good relationships than you can imagine. What I realized was that religion wasn't the problem. Religion is not what split those couples up. God did not keep you out of the temple. It was man made rules and perversions of Christ's message. Christ taught you not to choose other people over him. He doesn't want you rejecting him because your friends have a problem with him. He did not teach people to forbid people from coming to him as the LDS church does. He did not say "don't let your unbelieveing friends near me." He didn't say "don't tell your unbelieving friends this" I don't know anything Christ said or did that the most hardened atheist doesn't know about. The LDS church on the other hand, will not allow you to even witness the most "sacred" parts of their religion unless you are already a committed member. I can see why you hate Christ so much. You got the wrong idea about what it means to choose him over your family from a church that practices exclusion. You don't like the Christ of the Bible. You've made that very apparent. You like the invented Christ that doesn't tell people they're going to hell. You like the invented Christ that doesn't point out the sins of others. You like the invented Christ that says nothing about judging righteous judgement. You don't like the Christ of the Bible that wants you to love your neighbor enough to warn them that they're on the wrong path. You don't like the Christ that wants you to accept the judgement of others so you can better yourself in the same way you judge others so they know you care so they want to better themselves. You like the watered down version of Christ that just smiles. That way you can be as vulgar and vindictive as you want to others and not have to worry about anyone judging you.
One thing I don't understand is why NP hates Jesus but likes the LDS church despite them saying the exact same thing. Jesus taught that he was the only way and all others are going to hell. And yet here we have him defending the LDS church which teaches point blank that they are the only true church. No member of any other religion will ever reach the best place you could possibly be after you die according to the LDS church. You can not get into the highest kingdom unless you are baptised LDS, tithe 10% of your income faithfully, and get married in the temple. A mormon may say that tithing is not compulsary but it is a requirement to get into the temple. If you don't tithe you don't get in. If you don't get into the temple, you don't get to be with your family forever. You get dumped in some lesser level of heaven. Nothing upsets NP more than twisting Christ's message but this apparently got past him. Instead of making belief in Christ the way to heaven, the LDS church has twisted it to make it a belief in the chruch. I'm sure he has discussed this issue with his brother since it is such a pet peeve of his that anyone say anything that would go contrary to his view of who Christ was and what he stood for. It is probably very difficult for NP to have a discussion about the LDS church without going vulgar over their "only true church" belief.
Kalvin, what I have read, you did make it personal, you kept his brother in the discussion and his relationship with his brother. North is not claiming to be a Christian, but I believe he grew up going to church, so what you are saying to him you should be saying to me if I didn't know that the mormon religion was different from Christianity as a fellow believer. I feel like I missed a part of the conversation, because of something that must have been talked about in another thread, but you don't need to make North pry into his brothers life. North can find out things about the mormon church elsewhere, if he was really interested. Stick with what you know to be true in your family Kalvin. Talk about your own experiences with the mormon church but leave North and his family out.
Until my name was brought up and he attacked me personally, this was all perfectly impersonal. I'm not making him. I'm giving him the tools to see if his brother is leaving anything out. It's up to him to use them to verify his claim that his brother wouldn't "lie" to him. Nobody accused his brother of being a liar. North is accusing us (more me) of lying to him under the assumption that his brother wouldn't "lie." So I'm asking him to prove that we're lying to him. False accusations are unwarrented. This is why certain religions make people hate religion. If North were to ask his brother pointed questions and find out that he wasn't telling him things or refused to tell him things (like what exactly was said during the temple ceremonies, and what was acted out, or what the church teaches about blood sacrifice), I can imagine it would do nothing but piss off North. And obviously, he'd rather be pissed at a nobody on the internet. It's the standard reaction that a lot of people have. They would rather assume their beliefs are true and hate someone else than challenge their own beliefs about things and risk finding out they were wrong. I'm not attacking him or his brother. I'm discussing events that he himself brought up.
Actually, I could be completely wrong because I did not read the whole thread but from what I saw (again I could be completely wrong) I thought KalvinB handled himself extremely well. Especially since North told KalvinB to do something (not going to repeat what) and I hardly ever saw north lose his temper. Anyway, I was thinking today while driving my car: "I can't believe that dude KalvinB. He remained so cool about the whole thing. I can't believe I'm thinking about it right now when I have better things to think about." I am not going to read the whole thing but that was my impression based on kalvinB particular coolness when he was "addressed" by north. I am not sure if north is proud of his response to KalvinB. Not taking anyone's side, just totally impressed with the cool restraint from KalvinB by not responding in a like manner.
That's a very weak attempt, Protein, even by your standards. I am neither proud nor ashamed at the bald anger I displayed towards Kalvin. It accurately represents my opinion of him, and it was earned.
Dude, I did not read the whole thread. I was just impressed with his cool response and how he did not reply to your "bald anger". If someone said something to me, I am not sure how I would respond. BUT, for whatever the reason, after reading KalvinB reply I am inclined to believe that I TOO can come up with a cool (reserved) reply. I don't know the guy, and I didn't read all his posts ONLY this particular response which again really impressed me with his coolness. Whether he was right, or who started what or what the issue is I don't know. I just liked the response (that's all I wanted to say).
So, you read from my post forward, and make a conclusion accordingly. Thank you for the contribution, then, I guess (??); It is my nature to flip out over nothing, as evidenced by my usual behavior on this forum, so it makes perfect sense that you would only read from the part where I unleash on him forward. You really should consider thought before posting, protein. I understand you and Kalvin are really of like mind, and have both been wounded on this forum, but it doesn't give you the weight of honorable debate to simply weigh in from a position of admitted ignorance.
North, I did not read the whole post. Sometimes I just scroll through and something just happens to catch my attention. I am not looking for sympathy so I have no idea about KalvinB opinions in general. I also do not know how to use dp very well. It was only today I discovered there is a section called user cp and noticed ONLY TODAY I have received messages in there. I also lose my cool sometimes and make mistakes and get proven wrong (by GRIM). I am telling you again I did not read the post, I did not make a conclusion other than what i thought was a super cool response. Again, what I am saying probably doesn't make sense right now because you think I am taking sides or whatever. Didn't mean to bug you or say that KalvinB is right on whatever it is you're disagreeing on.
I suggest you watch "All about Mormons" episode from South Park. You'll know what Mormonism is all about afterwards
Blah, north, you should of known better not to deal with the likes of Kalvin in the first place. Leave him be. As i did with proteindude. It is absolutely impossible and rather useless to talk sense into these kinds of people.
South Park - is that a Kalvinist pamphlet? Yeah, yeah, I know, brother, I lost my cool, and it's idiotic. Kalvin has been wounded so many times I guess he needed to hit where it might get a reaction, and, uh, he did. Just wondering - was I clear?
Yes like when you made it personal and started attacking me and my kid. Hey just out of curiosity, did you get an infraction for that from the mods? Hey north, only yesterday I realised (after my post in this thread) that I can press the scale and send KalvinB a message about how I felt regarding his super cool reaction to your post. That would have been better than posting it here. I didn't want to send a pm as that's not something I normally do.
From page 1 of the thread - I know it's difficult, but you might find actual reading kind of "super cool" sometime, buddy. Proteindude, you've admitted your ignorance in not reading the genesis (no pun intended) of this thread's contention, and your continued posting here doesn't rise to the level of baiting, as it is so obvious. I realize Kalvin may be coaching you to this (at least this is what it reads like to me - your language is suggesting it), but I really couldn't care less that you may or may not find Kalvin's idiocy "super cool" or not, or that you are only know learnng how to use the fundamentals of DP. You really should mine other territories.
You're reading too much into my post. Without knowing all the facts, I just saw his reply and I thought it was a very cool one and well articulated. What triggered your attack on him was maybe justified: I DON'T KNOW. Now, you're absolutely right: I am very new to dp and still don't know about how it fully works and only now I am finding out. I NEVER exchanged any pm's with KalvinB and don't intend to. So he is not "coaching" me in any way and I don't follow his points either. Anyway, I guess you won't see my point on this occassion and I agree it would have been a lot more appropriate if I sent him a message after pressing on that scale thing (I am not a big fan of sending pm's). Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
@OP: Sorry for the delay. I've been away for a while. I'm Mormon. I've seen that video before. It is wrong on many of its claims and is obviously not official Church media. There's much anti-Mormon content out there, and this is one of them. It's not to be trusted, if you want the facts. Briefly, Joseph Smith is the man who was called of God to be the first prophet in these latter days. He restored what we believe is the true church back onto Earth. I see you visited mormon.org - there's more info there. It is an official Church site. Also, Joseph Smith was not armed when he was shot. He was in prison! Of course they didn't let him carry a weapon. A mob forced their way into the room where he and his brother and companion were being kept. They shot through the door, forced it open, and shot them. Joseph was fatally wounded while falling out of the second-story window. I've been there. You can see the glass. You can see the bullet holes. It's a very solemn experience.... The Mormon religion is not violent. We do not promote or endorse violence: we teach against it. Those who commit acts of violence (like, criminal scale) are generally excommunicated; Murder is an always on that. Also, we don't practice polygamy. Period. We ARE Christians. We believe in Christ as our savior and redeemer, for all mankind. (Also, reference Mitt Romney's speech, Faith in America; great speech.) I recommend to anyone TRULY interested in the history of our Church to consult official Church resources only: www.lds.org (check out the library) and www.mormon.org, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine & Covenants are your best bet. Or, come straight to a Mormon you know. Many anti-Mormon sources cite excommunicated members. That's never a good idea... please just come straight to the source, and before you judge, KNOW. Thank you
In other news: Our views on the afterlife: We believe in a plan of salvation, which involves going eventually to one of three kingdoms of glory after death. Those who murder, betray, pillage, rape, etc, will be sent to the lowest kingdom, and those who are righteous and fulfill all commandments eventually will gain eternal salvation in the highest glory of the highest kingdom. We believe that before being sent to Earth, there was a "war" in heaven: A war of good vs. evil, essentially. We all chose to get a body and come to Earth to gain eternal salvation, to learn and to grow. Others did not, and were cast out of heaven into what we call Outer Darkness, or others call "Hell", though they are the same. Marriage: Marriage between Man and Woman is ordained of God. Marriage in the temple is eternally-binding. Not just until death "will they part" - a sealed couple will be together for eternity, with their family. What goes on in temples is sacred, not secret. As you can see, when the rest of the world knows what goes on, they abuse that knowledge. It's offensive to God, and it's offensive to us. But we try not to let it bother us, because really we know you're just offending God when talking trash about what is sacred to us. But to dispel some common myths: No, we do not do sacrifices in the 5th floor of the Las Vegas temple. (Considering there are only 4...) We don't do sacrifices anywhere, at all, ever. We don't have horns... We do not worship Joseph Smith.... We are not a cult... I will be happy to answer any other serious questions about our religion, but again, I point you to official LDS Church resources as in my post above for details. The www.lds.org site has the complete LDS scripture digitized so you can read it online, from King James version of the Holy Bible with JST to the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. Cheers, -Matt (Btw, if you're looking for other Mormons... there is one other here I know of. If he's around I'll snag 'im.)