Do you mean Pope, Bishops, Archbishops are not Christians? The Catholic laity in Slovakia was taught by their clergy that the Nazis were doing the will of Jesus Christ in exterminating the Jews. In 1942 before Passover, Rabbi Michael Dov-Ber Weissmandel asked for help from a fellow clergy person and long-time acquaintance, Archbishop Kametko. Rabbi Weissmandel begged the archbishop to intervene with President Tisso, to prevent the expulsion of the Jewish population from Slovakia. Archbishop Kametko replied "This is no mere expulsion. There you will not die of hunger and pestilence; there they will slaughter you all, young and old, women and children, in one day. This is your punishment for the death of our Redeemer. There is only one hope for you, to convert to our religion. Then I shall effect the annulling of this decree." (See "Min Hamezar", in "Faith After the Holocaust", Eliezer Berkovits, Ktav, 1973, pp. 16-17.) In fall 1945, Rabbi Michael Dov-Ber Weissmandel escaped from a deportation to Auschwitz. He approached the papal nuncio (Catholic papal delegate) for help in stopping the extermination of Slovakian Jews. The official response was "This, being a Sunday, is a holy day for us. Neither I nor Father Tisso occupy ourselves with profane matters on this day." Rabbi Weissmandel asked how the murder of innocent men and women, children and babies could be considered "profane" by Christians. The Catholic Archbishop replied, "There is no innocent blood of Jewish children in the world. All Jewish blood is guilty. You have to die. This is the punishment that has been awaiting you because of that sin [the death of Jesus]." (Eliezer Berkovits, Faith, pp. 16-17.) According to you, any Arab who kills someone is a Muslim and Islam's fault and Islam is a hate religion but when Pope, priests and Bishops kill people, they are not Christian and it is not Christianity's fault. Talk about double standard.
I wouldn't be too soft though, remember that they would be escaping death... And they would not be ordinary workforce nor would they work for privates of course, but for the government. I wouldn't insult law abiding workers giving them the same or even similar conditions. Maybe it would not be a good idea to let them work too close to free society, forced labour I said and forced labour I mean! Maybe give the option, or maybe not give the option and send them to Irak, bringing home those that don't want to stay, at least some. The only problem would be the softies that would feel sorry for them and start moaning about it, and also who couldn't help treating them like s**t, I would like to see a lot of heavy work to be done!
I fail to see how forced labor though is going to deter crime, some may see it as a good thing while in prison, keeping busy makes time go quicker. I also do not see forced labor to an extreme help at all for when they eventually get released from prison unless of course it helps pay for their time, possibly gives them a skill, and some form of money when they get out. Before those jump to a conclusion I am not for paying inmates to reward them, but look at the facts someone sent to prison for robbing a house is released with nothing and can't find a job is going to be more likely to revert to crime compared to someone who is released and has at least a few bucks to get a crappy apartment, some clothes and try to find a job. Lastly, even prisoners who are US citizens deserve the protections of our US constitution.
The type of punishment does not solve the problem, preventive measures that stop the crime solves the problem. When the society does not reserve enough resources to detect mental problem and effectively deal with it, you will have criminals. When we don't make a society that help the weakest people in society to be able to get eduction or get job, we will have criminals. The hard punishment and sadistic conditions in prisons that seems to be the pride and joy of right wing nuts, only makes the problem worse. Everybody here is crying about rape but very seldom you see a conservative that protests about the unsafe conditions in prison system and rape of prisoners by other prisoners. How can you tell to a young person that has been in prison that rape is wrong when as a society, you are OK with prisoners getting raped, even if they are convicted of simple crimes as shop lifting? The truth is with the sadistic situations in prison and harder prison terms, the society is producing more and more harden criminals. The percentage of people in prison in USA is already higher than different dictatorships around the world and still it has no effect. Uca You asked about stats for countries that had death penalty and stopped it, this is from Canada: Homicide Rates Fall in Canada After Abolition of Death Penalty The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. In addition, homicide rates in Canada are generally three times lower than homicide rates in the U.S., which uses the death penalty. For example, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the homicide rate in the U.S. in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population and the rate in Canada was only 1.8. Canada currently sentences those convicted of murder to life sentences with parole eligibility. (Issues Direct.com, 8/4/02). The Geography of Execution: The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America. Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides and violent crime in 293 pairs of counties. Counties were matched in pairs based on geographic location, regional context, historical development, demographic and economic variables. The pairs shared a contiguous border, but differed on use of capital punishment. The authors found no support for a deterrent effect of capital punishment at the county level comparing matched counties inside and outside states with capital punishment, with and without a death row population, and with and without executions. The authors did find higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties. (Rowman and Littlefiled Publishers, Lanham, MD (1997)) Death Penalty Information Center
Just another note about America... My (current) favorite pistol was designed in America by an American citizen from South Korea. That American, Justin Moon, is a member of the Unification Church and is also the son of the church's founder, Reverend Sun Myung Moon. The Reverend's company, the Saeilo Group, invested $5M into the new company to design and develop this line of pocket pistols. In the words of Justin Moon "I proudly participate and support my church and my community. This is, after all, a free country. I cherish my First Amendment rights as well as my Second Amendment rights." God (the god of your choice) Bless America!
Forced labour is supposed to be something bad, really not desirable, just better than DP (death penalty ). You make it sound as an ordinary job. Nevermind, I'm about to leave the office, see you soon!
gworld: I solved you little confusion about Islam and Christianity way back in Post 1047. Please go back, read this post, print in out, and tape it to your wall. This should prevent you from forgetting again. And please try not to spit up blood onto the print-out. That will make it difficult to read and might force you to start your learning process all over again.
gworld I agree with most of your post, preventative measures should be implemented but you won't zero crime, so punishment will be needed too. Conditions in prison? I really don't know them, I've never been there and I hope I never will, I have only seen many films. Prisoners should not be treated too softly, but definetely protected from other prisoners I totally agree with you on that too. Very interesting subject, unfortunately I'm leaving now, see you soon!
Not an ordinary job in the least, just looking at what benefits could actually occur from having such systems in place.
It is good that you have such high opinion of yourself that you put a link to your own posting, since any intelligent person just thinks that you are a moron. There is no difference between religious fanatics if they follow Islam or Christianity. Sick bastards who enjoy killing people are sick bastards independent if they are called Hussein or Will.
Nice try gworld, but most viewers can think for themselves and see through your BS excuse for a derailment of the point being made by posting that link. And just for the viewers (since you probably won't look at it this time either gworld)... I'll re-post it for you
Ah... but the Constitution only provides for this: There are quite a few very bad things that are not covered here.
Groupie; I thought you belonged to Gtech. You don't need to run after Will, your daddy will be back soon. Can you at least try to tell us how will's post that you are so found of is related to my posting about Christianity. I am not discussing the differences between American election system and Saudi Arabia's system, I am discussing use of violence by both religion. I forget, you previously mentioned that you don't understand these subjects.
FYI - I proudly back anyone who actually attempts to think for themselves. My "daddy" lives several 1000 miles away from me so Im not sure what you are crying about there. You are right, Im not big on religion, but I will say again, Ive never met a Christian who wanted to saw my head off or slaughter the children that live in my neighborhood. In fact most Christians that I know work hard and pay taxes so that liberals can sit and home and bitch, moan, and be lazy knowing full well that the rest of the country will continue paying for it. Now if you'll excuse me, Ive got a state Republican convention to go to and none of them like me because I dont like any of them so I am about to take FAR MORE flack than you could ever dish out. Talk to you lot later.
Yes it could be argued, it comes down primarily though to phrases such as Where does it also state in the constitution that other rights are taken away from those accused and or imprisoned? The 8th, 6th amendment of which you quoted only adds rights for the process, I don't see it taking any rights away myself.
I find this funny to the extent I know one particular right wing republican 'he agrees he is one' who does work, but gets many benefits from the state including health care for his child, food stamps, etc. He is living exactly the opposite of his stated beliefs, but it doesn't stop him from doing so.
The problem with prison labor is a difficult one to explain. It's roots are in basic economics, and in human motivation. Prison labor provides an economic value to the government. That's good, right? Well, no, actually that is terrifyingly dangerous. The economic value motivates the government to imprison it's citizens -- for economic gain. Budget not balancing? Pass some new laws! Make chewing gum punishable by ten years in prison and you have a steady stream of new workers. We see this model at work in China, where millions of people slave in forced labor camps. Some of these people are imprisoned because of "crimes" committed by their ancestors. Overall, in America, we have multiple problems with our justice system: 1. Way way way too many laws. 2. Odds of enforcement are laughingly small. 3. Sentences are longer than they need to be for non-violent crimes. 4. Lack of an effective death penalty makes prisons a worse evironment than necessary. My recommendations are: 1. Reduce the number of laws. Strike consensual crimes (drug use, drug dealing, prostitution, gambling, etc...) from the books. 2. Refocus our law enforcement investments into enforcing the remaining laws with a much greater measure of surety. 3. Reduce sentences for non-violent offenders to "learning levels". Imprisoning these people for longer than necessary limits their ability to reintegrate into society and costs us unnecessary tax dollars. A 4 year sentence is not significantly more effective than a 2 year sentence, yet it costs twice as much and also reduces the taxes paid by the prisoner for twice as long. 4. Make the death penalty real and effective. A death penalty that "might possibly happen" does not deter crime. A death penalty that happens regularly deters crime. The death penalty should not be reserved for a subset of murders, the death penalty should be standard for all murders. In addition, the death penalty should not be something you might get in fifty years, it should be something you will receive after a fair and speedy trial. Regular offenders do not want these murderers in their prisons. Prisons full of people with life-sentences with nothing to lose are not prisons where inmates can reflect on their poor decisions and choose to take an alternate path upon their release.
Your stupidity is unbelievable. You are white, Christian and American, of course no Christian wants to kill you. You must Ask Jews like these ones: In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children! In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar -orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. or 200,000 Muslims killed in Bosnia or 800,000 people killed in Rwanda about how good Christians are in killing people from other religions. It is too bad that you can't ask them since they were brutally murdered, burned or buried in mass graves.
Will for the most part I agree with what you just posted, my only disagreement is not in full but some trivial differences in your death penalty stance. On the forced labor. If the forced labor being set forth was also a little more standard as to what we are talking about I may be for it, or against it. Nothing as of yet though has been set out to exactly what type of forced labor we are talking about and how it would be carried out.