Anti-War 100,000 - Pro-War 400

Your post above mine came in after I posted My net is real bad at the moment.


I still have not made a decision to tell you the truth on the subject, if Bush spied w/o a warrant on non US citizens I see no problem at all and I would hope he would. Doing so however w/o a warrant on us citizens comes back to constitutional issues, not mere laws that are on the book.

Long standing US policy or not, if they are doing it against US citizens against the constitution I say put them all on trial...
If done correctly give GWB props in this situation..

If you think w/o a warrant on a US citizen does not go against the constitution though you sure get a different meaning out of reading than I do.

Holding my tongue either way until more of the story is told even if it's 10 years down the road.

Thank you for the response..

--edit...the drudge reports info though does not perfectly match what we've heard about GWB, it's a bit different is it not?

 

Mia, Gtech, little will

Are you people really that stupid, or you just make up these things and then start believing it? There has never been a discussion that they can do in principal anything they like when it is about foreign intelligence and citizens. The problem is Bush decided to spy on American Citizens without any warrant. Domestic spying is the problem not what they do oversees.

even Bush himself has publicly admitted to this fact when he was trying to convince Americans that he is not taking away their civil liberties.

"A wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so," Mr. Bush said in April of 2004.

 

http://www.prfamerica.org/US_supreme_court_sides_with_privacy_rts.html

This article from my reading disproves the theory 'that it's US policy' and not illegal to do such activities.

From drudge:

Just because it's signed as an executive order does not make it US policy, nor does it make it Constitutional....

-does it not?

Looking for info to base an opinion of the subject on

 

WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 - Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.

............................

One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

................................

"It's clear that this administration has engaged every possible agency, from the Pentagon to N.S.A. to the F.B.I., to engage in spying on Americans," said Ann Beeson, associate legal director for the A.C.L.U.

"You look at these documents," Ms. Beeson said, "and you think, wow, we have really returned to the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when you see in F.B.I. files that they're talking about a group like the Catholic Workers league as having a communist ideology."

............................

"The fact that we're even mentioned in the F.B.I. files in connection with terrorism is really troubling," said Tom Wetterer, general counsel for Greenpeace. "There's no property damage or physical injury caused in our activities, and under any definition of terrorism, we'd take issue with that."

Jeff Kerr, general counsel for PETA, rejected the suggestion in some F.B.I. files that the animal rights group had financial ties to militant groups, and said he, too, was troubled by his group's inclusion in the files.

"It's shocking and it's outrageous," Mr. Kerr said. "And to me, it's an abuse of power by the F.B.I. when groups like Greenpeace and PETA are basically being punished for their social activism."

http://www.nytimes.com

 

Where the F! do we live?!

 

Ah, doom and gloom...

Oh, it's so terrible... I can't do anything anymore. Ever since Bush became president all my rights disappeared. People are watching my every move, my phones are likely tapped... Hell the little Google flex light attached to my iBook is probably recording my every keystroke right now as I type. It's the end.. God no, conspiracy theory, it's here, Armageddon. HELP!!!

 

This is a tempest in a teapot. It's classic petty Washington politics.

One thing I learned while taking classes in Criminal Law and Legal Research was that the real defense against government behaviors such as illegal wiretapping is that the evidence obtained cannot be used in court.

These wiretaps and tone recorders are useless in a criminal trial. Unless you are actively engaged in terrorist attacks on the United States, these government activities are effectively irrelevant to you.

If you are engaged in such activities, then you should worry, because the government could intervene before you can successfully carry out your attack. You could be met at the elementary school by a whole bunch of very humorless federal agents.

I am amused that PETA is shocked to find itself on this list, as they have been involved in violent assaults on medical research facilities. There should be a court order in that case, because I would like to see those assholes brought to justice.

The "Catholic" Workers Party should be happy that their were no court-ordered wiretaps. With a court order, they could be arrested and charged with funneling money to terrorist organizations. Without a court order, all the government can do is watch the money go by and try to intercept it after it leaves their hands and before it gets to Hezbollah, etc...

Effectively, the government handicaps its ability to prosecute in order to be able to act quickly in preventing further attacks on American citizens.

I am, once again, ambivalent. Most American cities are infected with socialist weakness. The strength of this nation is in its rural areas. I find it ridiculous that conservative rural Americans are the ones who do the real work of defending those urbanites against the very terrorists whom they support. I am beginning to feel that we should let the Islamists attack our liberal-infested cities until the Liberals are tired of it.

I just wish they they would hit Hollywood next and wipe out their largest center of support within the United States.

 

Well according to Mr. Bush, he also have a free hand to torture people and imprison Americans without any charges, lawyers, courts or conviction. There for the fact that the wiretapping can not be used in court shouldn't be such big problem for government.

little willy;

if you are trying to sound like Hitler with all your BS about all the enemies of state, at least remember that Hitler was a corporal in the first world war. Your experience is limited to playing war on xbox. It just sounds ridiculous when the little willy tries to sound like a dictator .

 

Jurist worried that Bush order tainted work of secret panel

A federal judge has resigned from the court that oversees government surveillance in intelligence cases in protest of President Bush's secret authorization of a domestic spying program, according to two sources.

U.S. District Judge James Robertson, one of 11 members of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, sent a letter to Chief Justice John D. Roberts Jr. late Monday notifying him of his resignation without providing an explanation.

Two associates familiar with his decision said yesterday that Robertson privately expressed deep concern that the warrantless surveillance program authorized by the president in 2001 was legally questionable and may have tainted the FISA court's work.
....................

Word of Robertson's resignation came as two Senate Republicans yesterday joined the call for congressional investigations into the National Security Agency's warrantless interception of telephone calls and e-mails to overseas locations by U.S. citizens suspected of links to terrorist groups. They questioned the legality of the operation and the extent to which the White House kept Congress informed.

Sens. Chuck Hagel (Neb.) and Olympia J. Snowe (Maine) echoed concerns raised by Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who has promised hearings in the new year.

Spy court judge quits in protest

It seems even the republican senators and the judge who worked for secret panel don't agree with Gtech, mia or little willy.

 

Can you provide any source for this? Where do you get this from?

You sure are obcessed with Hitler, aren't you? And your experience is limited to comic book fantasies and wiccan scrolls

 

Sometimes we need a reminder of who the original article said were being monitored and where that came from. Not ordinary American citizens, but those directly and indirectly linked to known terrorists, correct? And it was domestic to international calls, correct? And warrants were obtained for domestic to domestic, correct?

Isn't that what the article said, and what I pointed out several times? When did monitoring terrorists become a bad thing?

Regarding the bolded "infrared sensors" comment, it didn't say "limited to" or "only" infrared sensors, did it? From what I gather, the executive order Clinton signed was far more invasive on "ordinary" Americans, where Bush was focused on terrorists. Such outrage. OMG, we're monitoring terrorists!

In regards to the latest NYT treason/sales article, I didn't note anything illegal at all. That these particular groups are monitored should be common knowledge. I'm sure LEA monitors crooks, murderers, pedophile groups, those involved with drugs, and many other types of illegal behavior. Was there something illegal, or is more fabricated outrage?

 

Again you've taken what I stated w/o looking at the previous posters comments,,in this case 'Mia' the american citizen reference was 'if', and goes to the basis of Mia stating it's legal and long standing US policy, such as the Clinton version posted on Drudge

You guys were chearing at the comments on Drudge, one decided to try to state it was perfectly legal and long standing US policy, in which case I showed the supreme court nocking down extremely similiar tactics as unconstitutional.

As far as what Bush did though, more and more is coming out now and I have been hearing the 'American Citizen also being targetted' phrase a whole lot more lately, not simply terrorists. I am still waiting to see the story unfold.


---edit, to summarize what I posted was against Clintons order and not Bush, still going to the fact of 'long standing US policy', 'legal' and 'constitutional'

 

That’s why I live on top of a mountain (4000 ft), in the woods, and we avoid cites like the plague. I like keeping my car, not exposing my kids to seeing two men holding hands, or freak hairdos, where it is difficult to discern who is a man and who is a women. I will take country any day over city life.

At least he has not gassed American children yet, like the Mr. Moral Clinton.

New York Times should change its name to New York Crimes


D

 

Wouldn't that be a conditional position? In other words, arguing your true feelings on the subject in one way, while introducing a condition that might offer you an out on the other side, should the tide turn?

Now we're getting some where! "You guys," meaning those on the opposite side of what you feel on the subject. Meanwhile, your position on the Drudge comments was basically "so what?" So in other words, no big deal that other presidents have used the same legal authority. It only matters if Bush did it in going after terrorists? Isn't that rather one sided on the issue? The NSA should be going after terrorists, as it was and if previous presidents use the same legal authority under other administrations, then I feel they are doing so in the best interest of our national security. That's the reward of being firm in your position. No back pedalling, no conditions to be met, no "what if's, could be's, might have been," etc.

The supreme court knocking down similar "tactics" (apparently I missed that post) is not the same as the supreme court saying Bush was wrong, Clinton was wrong and Carter was wrong. Yet, when Bush does the same and it comes to light others did as well, the attack goes right ahead with Bush, while virtually ignoring and discounting that others have used their legal authority in the same manner. Different sets of standards. Who would have thought?

I've not heard any such thing. Source? Now, I know much of the liberal media is trying to portray poor old Auntie Helen in mid-west Iowa as having her knitting club telephone calls monitored, but in fact, the NYT treason article clearly mentioned (reluctantly, hidden in the pre-sales book article) that it was terrorists and it was domestic to international calls, where warrants were obtained for the domestic to domestic calls.

Who would have thought going after terrorists was such a cardinal sin?

I'm having a field day watching the Dems whine their way out of this one on the various news sources! They are and have been losing credibility in their efforts to undermine our country's national security.

 

Our "rights" have not disappeared but they're eroding.

If you're fine with that then don't worry about what anyone else says.

 

Does anyone have any idea what rights are eroding? I've often wondered what perceived right I've lost.

 

Really? For instance?

 

The 1968 Gun Control Act kicked the shit out of my Constitutional rights!

 

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

vs.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm

 

From Bush and you. Look at all your previous posting about Padilla (American Citizen) and how you were defending that he can be imprisoned without any charges or conviction. He was in prison for 3 years as enemy combatant before government got scared of supreme court and decided to charge him with crimes that was not even related to what they said they were holding him for.

I think anyone can do a search in DP and find your previous postings in defense of imprisoning Americans with trial or conviction.