Are you a gambling man? Do you want to bet? He is already all for it, to arrest and imprison Americans without any charge, courts or conviction, do you really think he will mind if they start torturing Americans because of some excuse that they need information or something else? I can already tell you what his response will be: " I haven't lost any rights because they are not torturing me since I am not terrorist. If they are torturing some Americans, it is because they are terrorists."
Are you still disappointed your terrorist bud, Jose Padilla - a member of al qaida, is behind bars? To what length wouldn't you go to defend a terrorist? Have any big rocks?
Al Qaeda has attacked the U.S., Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc... Can you word that again? It doesn't quite make sense. They "may" do a lot of bad/dumb things. They "may" not. If they do, we "may" kick the living shit out of them until they wisen up. Remember, we didn't kick the shit out of Germany *once* -- we did it *twice*.
I think you will lose. Gtech If government decides to torture someone because they think he has information about a bomb plot, would you be for it or against it?
Yes I do get that, I just don't think a simple attack versus the world war realy fits I guess is what I was trying to say. Almost an apples to oranges type of thing. Yes I realised it was confusing when I typed it, trying to think of how to make it better at the moment I get what you say here, but do you honestly think if it's what the Iraqi people want with a democratically elected government the US will go in there then? If that guarantee could be put into place I could see the pro war peoples argument on this side that much better.
Which government? Mine, or yours? If I were john kerry, or someone else around here, i'd be for it, against it and for it before I was against it. But if they did, would you be silent on it like you are with other countries? Would you start giving the US a pass like other countries, when they run over kids arms, bury women up to their necks and stone them to death? I see where your outrage is, and where it isn't
Yes I might, but if you love democracy in anyway shape or form you must also love to gamble a bit in the first place.
I lost? Thanks for letting me know! Do I get a parting gift, like some stones, a saw, a new tire, or a membership card to be in al qaida? Maybe some aromatherapy candles and a nice book entitled "terrorists are not bad people, they just did a few bad things?" LOL! <crickets chirping...>
Adolf Hitler was actively attacking other countries, invaded them, etc makes it a totally different story. Wow talk about a typo,
Apparently some people (not singling out Will btw) see life in black and white issues. In truth nearly everything has a huge gray area...
There are different shades of grey, and what it often comes down to is the mindset of the people. Interpretations. You can't compare grey with grey all the time and say "well, we execute people". Sure we do, but let's see some numbers here, some statistics, and let's see some video footage of all the executions that have legally happened in Iran this year alone. I bet you (I'd hope) it would make you sick to your stomach knowing that this is an ongoing thing: no trial, public humiliation and execution. It's a big fiesta over there. How do you call this culture and at what point does the culture excuse stop being credible for overlooking blatant violations of human rights. Why don't you hold the people and the government over there to the same standards as ours? Maybe killing Jews was a German culture that we should not have interfered with then.
Maybe I'm wrong here but I still see it as a culture issue, look how horrible some of our ancestors were to their own people, Iran for example is not anywhere near what we are today in the evolution chain so to speak. If we can help the people I'm all for that, if we could do it in such a way short of invading the country I'm totally for it by simply helping them along the way a little bit. I realise helping will probally not cut it, however it still does not make it right for us to ally ourselves with the same types of people than bash an enemy state for the same exact reasons. Do not get me wrong Iran's government is not good in my eyes and I hope not in any others active in this forum. If we take the current government out, and even if we get a bit more moderate government in control much of the abuses would still probally take place would they not? We would still be allied with countries being just as repressive to their citizens would we not? I realise none of this is directed at me but I thought your post was excellent and felt the need to respond so hope you don't mind If I do hold our own government to a higher standard ever it's because I live here, my son lives here, and I in a republic have some say via the democratic process afforded to us. To be fair that was genocide, and we did not get involved to stop it nor did any country I believe? Or is my WWII history a bit off, been awhile I'll admit.
Mike, It never surprises me how ignorant you are about the history. I have news for you, WWII was not about stopping Germans killing Jews, it was about colonies in Africa and Asia and dominance of Europe. Let's look at what Americans did for Jews during WWII: America's immigration laws have always placed quotas on the number of people allowed to enter the United States from other countries. For example, in 1939 the quota allowed for 27,370 German citizens to immigrate to the United States. In 1938, more than 300,000 Germans —mostly Jewish refugees —had applied for U.S. visas (entry permits). A little over 20,000 applications were approved. Beyond the strict national quotas, the United States openly denied visas to any immigrant "likely to become a public charge." This ruling proved to be a serious problem for many Jewish refugees who had lost everything when the Nazis took power and might be in need of government assistance after they immigrated to the United States. Shortly after she was appointed to the cabinet, Frances Perkins, President Roosevelt's Secretary of Labor, proposed an executive order regarding refugees and immigration. Perkins suggested that the State Department should give priority to immigrants seeking refuge from racial or religious persecution. The State Department objected to this order because it would antagonize relations with Germany and alienate jobless American citizens. FDR never issued the order and State Department officials in Europe continued to reject many visa applications from Jewish refugees. ........................... By 1938, that number had increased to more than 20,000, but an opinion poll revealed that 82 percent of Americans still opposed admitting large numbers of Jewish refugees into the United States. Despite pleas by American human rights organizations, the U.S. State Department refused to increase the German quota any further. ..................... In May 1939, only a few months before war began in Europe, a passenger ship called the St. Louis left Germany carrying nearly a thousand refugees, most of whom were Jews. Many of these people had already qualified for, but had not yet received, American visas. They arranged for temporary Cuban tourist visas that would enable them to wait outside of Germany for U.S. visas. By the time the St. Louis reached Havana, however, the Cuban government had changed its visa regulations. It refused to allow most of the refugees to land. Forced to leave Cuban waters, the St. Louis sailed up the Florida coast. The U.S. Coast Guard followed close behind to prevent any passengers from swimming ashore. The State Department refused to allow the refugees to land without special legislation by Congress or an executive order from the president. Efforts by American Jewish organizations to work out a compromise failed. The desperate passengers aboard the St. Louis sent President Roosevelt a telegram pleading their case; he never replied. ............................ Finally, the St. Louis returned to Europe and several nations granted asylum to the refugees. But when Hitler's troops marched through Europe, most of the St.Louis' ill-fated passengers were eventually caught by the Nazis and sent to concentration camps. ............................. On the eve of World War II, a bill that would have admitted Jewish refugee children above the regular quota limits was introduced in Congress. President Roosevelt took no position on the bill, and it died in committee in the summer of 1939. Polls at the time indicated that two-thirds of Americans opposed taking in Jewish refugee children. .............................. http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria10_2.html#hitler In fact until may be 20 years ago, Anti-Semitics was as strong as in Arab and east Europe countries and Jews very commonly were associated with communists who want to destroy the American way of life. You can look at people who were victimized under Senator Mac Carthy period of hatred. It is only in the last 15-20 years that love of Jews and Israel has been built in the neo-con philosophy as one of the milestones of being conservative and American patriot.
You're kidding right? We didn't get involved until we were bombed at Pearl Harbor.. which I do believe wasn't even Germany bombing us...
Who's overlooking humans rights violations? Iran is terrible I agree. But how can you whine about Iran when our soldiers recklessly through cluster bombs all over the city that have zero aim and kill citizens? Is it not a human right violation to bomb Iraq's civilians? Again, while I agree Iran is bad, there are still much worse places, like Sudan for example. Why aren't they getting the attention? I'm not excusing any human rights violations, but when do they become bad enough to invade and occupy a country?
The point Gworld is consistantly making is: he hates the U.S. and only cares to show the wrong YoYO: ummm same thing The points others on this thread are making: sure the U.S. isn't perfect, our pres isn't perfect, but we are sure working to always do the best What gworld reads: USA sucks and you are all brainwashed christian, right-winged, bigoted, homophobic, lying, scum of the earth, deserve to die by the hands of terrorists, etc.... (for those who remember AC) Gworld - don't you have a trailer to clean out or something??