You may think that's noble. Since the patriot act is law, I don't see it as ruling outside of the Constitution. It's still...just an opinion.
It has nothing to do with being noble, it has everything to do with me not wanting my son to grow up in a country that is not trully free. The patriot act is law, what does that matter if it's constitutional or not exactly? So then I take it since you didn't answer you never read it or legal experts views on it? Yes it is an opinion on your part and my part, the great thing about a republic such as we live in we can have our own opinions. If enough people thought we should be a communist country, we could become one, that however wont stop me from fighting against such. I also find it funny that some people including zman 'whom I'm not singling out' have the nerve to say I'm helping terrorists simply because I do not wish for US CITIZENS rights to be taken away. My true opinion on what we should do to terrorists goes well beyond the patriot act, those supporting it w/o reading it and supporting the Iraq war on the basis of 'terror' obviously did not follow the events up to the war. If you trully were against terrorists I would think you'd also be against anything that takes away even the slightest amount of our 'freedoms' and also against a war that took our military away from the real war on terror at that time. I would support powers to the government that go FAR beyond the patriot act as long as it does not effect Citizens of the United States of America!
And if citizens of the United States commit terrorism? What then? Not harm them or punish them because they are citizens? Terrorism is terrorism. We should treat it all the same regardless of origins. If you have the nerve to saw a head off, walk into a candy chewing crowd of children with a bomb strapped to your chest, fly a plane into a building full of INNOCENT people, you should lose all rights. This is my opinion, but if yours differs then I have very serious concerns for your viepoints.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that your son may not have a country to grow up in at the rate these thugs are getting support from the left.
Did I ever say not harm them? I am talking about constitutional rights. How about the death penalty, with enough proof I'd be totally for that, punishment is a totally different story and was not the subject. W/O being free is there realy a point to their being a country left? W/O the country standing for what it was founded on, in my opinion it's better to maintain our rights and the constitution than be 'safe'.
Well I have a much different opinion. We still have the constitution and we still have our hearts, minds and will power. Where there is a will there is a way. Now we are faced with two evils. One is we take away rights of anyone who would kill, or destroy innocent life. The other is we give them all the rights they want and hope for the best. We have to choose one of the two evils. Which is lesser? I know it sounds bad, but remember, we didnt ask for this. We didnt invite this. We didnt provoke this. It has been forced upon us for years and years. We are being attacked. We are at war. We MUST make important decisions that will protect our way of life. Some of us are stepping up to the plate and opening up for debate any ideas that could help. Some are just bitching and moaning and complainging about Bush. This is beyond Bush. We are talking years down the road. Bush sucks, ok feel better now? Now can we start accomplishing something or are we just going to continue pretending American soldiers are murderers and big bad America wants to rule the world? Can we open up a forum of debate and find REAL answers or are we going to continue playing these sick and twisted games of politics? This is much more serious than the left wants to admit.
ok,ok, I am back for the moment - Zman and Gtech I don't think herbalsmoke (he he) is really that far off from you. I think that he is cautious on all of this stuff, he doesn't want to jump to conclusions but has heard info that makes the patriot act look bad. I will have to say that I have heard it too, but from what I can see, it is from those who hate the USA such as ACLU, who want to nick pick it in a way that makes it look bad. But, I am also not going to say I fully support the patriot act, but the purpose I am fully supportive of. I, like Gtech, don't fear it being used against me, because I have nothing to hide. At the same time, if you give government an inch, they take a mile.
HAHAHAHA. Now I know your insane. We didn't supply Osama with weapons and train him? We didn't supply Saddam with weapons and support him? We didn't invade and occupy Iraq provoking MORE violence!? Just like our soldiers didn't burn bodies of dead men and in their religion "mutulate" their bodies!! Then we didn't ride into town calling them cowards??? Are you really that fucking delusional!? Right now we're supporting the Saudis and other middleeastern countries like Pakistan that have equal to or far worse policies and crimes against humanity than Iraq. Where do you think the 9/11 hijackers came from??? SAUDI ARABIA... what are we doing about that? Nothing..... why don't you wake up? How about deciding nothing in this world is worth breaking the constitution and taking away innocent people's rights in the name of terrorism? Nobody is supporting giving terrorists rights, we're talking about how the government is writing laws like the patriotic act that lets them take away OUR RIGHTS.
Sorry yo-yo, but your bouncing around on baseless crap again. I, meaning Eric, didnt do shit. I sat here eating my milk and cookies. So did my friends, co-workers, etc. So remind me again, how did I provoke someone to saw my head off? Are you saying those 3,000 that died on 9/11 deserved to die? Are you saying I deserve to have my head sawed off? Humor me.
It took REAL men to bring this country into existance. Why dont you let the REAL men handle this situation as well.
Oh and one more thing yo-yo, did you lose a couple rep blocks or am I just seeing things? hrb, having beer tonight? I'm grabbing a sixer of beamish on my way home. (Rob's fav)
You said we didn't provoke it or cause it. I'm telling you right now our government supported the 2 men you think are the big cause of all this. I didn't say anyone deserves anything, i just want you stop acting like america is innocent in all of this and wake up...
Unfortunately stupid people are allowed to vote just like smart people I'm not here for a reputation nor do i care about when people leave childish remarks about my family "having gay sex together". The only thing reputation is useful for is for buyers/sellers to gain trust on here, but it's obviously a flawed system for that... I refuse to change my standpoint or beliefs just b/c it may or may not affect my rep.
Oh ok so Clinton and some other officials did some stuff that could be considered dangerous. That may or may not be true. So, I say that I am innocent, and you want me to stop saying it? I say those 3,000 that were murdered on 9/11 were innocent and you want me to stop saying it? What is so bad about saying that INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED? Now I know why your rep bucket is low.
It's a fact that we supported bin laden and trained him when he was at war with Russia. We made a lot of promises and when it was over we just left. It's also a fact we supported Saddam and provided him with samples that were used to make biological weapons. It's also a fact that going to Iraq has provoked more terrorist attacks and caused more of our own people and Iraqi's to die. There's no speculation, no rumor, no "well maybe", it's recorded facts. I don't like the terrorists any more than anyone else, they should all be shot and killed. But our governments policies, carelessness, lies and actions have caused much more suffering and death than ever needed. If you want to keep the terrorists from killing us why aren't we spending those billions closing our borders? A terrorist can still RIGHT NOW go to mexico and walk across the border unchecked. How is toppling Saddam and occupying Iraq stopping that?? ITS NOT. I don't disagree that we must do something to protect ourselves, I only disagree with the methods and tactics being used, such an unessaccary war costing us gravely with lives and money.
Did you miss this part? It was in response to what you said So you are saying those who died for no reason at all are not innocent? Wow you really want to find America guilty for anything dont you? You dont even care that when you say America you are speaking of millions and millions of people who would never EVER kill or hurt any innocent person. BUT! We are guilty of something. You see a few gov officials pull some kind of political BS (which by the way most of America is pissed about and currently fighting against) and all of a sudden it is a "SEE! SEE HOW BAD AMERICANS ARE? THEY ARE NOT INNOCENT LIKE THEY CLAIM" Come on man, get a grip.
And you think the war in Iraq is going to stop 1 of 10,000 of those illegals crossing EACH AND EVERY SINGLE DAY from being a terrorist?
Yo-Yo, I have for some reason opened a dialog with you but you seem to ignore anything I am trying to get at. http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=392907&postcount=2157 There is the post. Please read it. There is nothing other than the post itself on that page. Once you read it come back and let's discuss it. You led me into that discussion so you cant just bail out when it starts to make too much sense for you. You pretty much said that those who die by the knife of a terrorist died because "America is bad". At least that is what I read. Now can you please further explain or clarify that claim?
Who elects our government? Who let's Bush control our country? Who funds all of this? Who didn't stop it from happening? Are we all guilty? In an indirect way .. yes we are. We all contribute tax dollars that made those bombs and fund the governemt did we not? If all our citizens stood up and said "the president can't do this" he would not have a choice. Do any of us deserve to die or be attacked? Of course not. Just stop saying all of this is unprovoked and we did all we could to stop it from happening, because we didn't.