Is it just reading materials on blowing up buildings that are being watched and only by terrorists? No it is not. Not all gun sales are 'registered', even by people who are not crooks. I am also against the registration of guns though, I don't own a gun so I guess it doesn't 'effect me' however I see it as a loss of rights which I am against. To be truthful I do not know, I was under the impression they are trained before they come to the US in most instances. Again it however is more than just 'bomb' making books, it also effects ALL us citizens not just 'terrorists' I'll list just a few, which DOES NOT matter if effects the average american or not, that is such a cop out. The rights of any US citizen should be protected, just because you do not think it effects you at this time should not matter if you have an ounce of love for what this country was founded on. I am not questioning your love for the country, however some have a strange idea on what the country and constitution were founded on, guess it's the persons perspective. Just 2 areas off the top of my head though, If you are for getting the terrorists with this legislation then why support it for also being used against US citizens, especially when many of the provisions within the patriot act the government already had the power to do against actual terrorists? Were you also for the patriot act 2? Not to mention much of the provisions were set to expire as even republicans did see the act as taking rights away, provisions being struck down by courts already, etc. Would you rather live all peaceful like with no chance of being killed, or live by what this country was founded on with a chance of being blown up? I'll take the last option myself.
What rights? I wouldn't have imagined that to such a hard question, since you seem to think you are loosing some. What rights? Do either of you actually know what rights were given up? Is "all" your common denominator? They trained in our airports and on our planes/simulators. How does it affect them? What do you take issue with? Did I miss the few you listed? I see no rights, from anyone, that have been lost? Again, I can't imagine it being that difficult, since you both are so concerned with those rights. Whose right has been abused by this? I am secure in my person, home, papers, effects and have never been searched or violated (well, there was that one night ) nor had anything seized. But what about the patriot act should make me thing that tomorrow I will? And who has been abused by the patriot act? My favorite! I always use this when arguing with the Christian hating liberals (not referring to you, hrb!) when they seethe about "separation of Church and State" which doesn't exist in the constitution. So, let's break this down: 1) Has Congress made a law respecting an establishment of religion? No, unless someone snuck in a rider that says we're all Baptists now. 2) Does Congress prohibit the free exercise thereof? They should, for at least one religion. I don't see why we should be respecting the rights of others to chop off heads. But other than that? 3) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. Cindy Sheehan seems to be enjoying freedom of speech. And of course, our news media has the right to lie and say Bush is racist or that hundreds were raped and murdered in the Superdome when really it was six. Seems inline to me. 4) right of the people peaceably to assemble. Resort back to Shehan again, although she did break the law and was arrested. But she and her gang of terrorist loving - American hating circus freaks were and still are gathering for staged news media photo ops. Million man march? The march against terrorism by muslims in Washington? Oh wait, that one didn't happen! What is "it?" The legislation works! It has been working! Many terrorist funding activities have been thwarted. A number of terrorist plots have been thwarted. And I'm supposed to be disappointed, because I've given up some right that no one seems to even know what it is? Didn't read it, so I couldn't say. I am living with what this country was founded on. I've yet to see a right I've given up. I've yet to see any "abuse" of the patriot act. The only thing I've seen out of it is good. And you're disappointed in that? No, I know you aren't, I'm sure there will be some sort of "but..."!
Just because you 'personally' have not noticed a loss of rights does not take from the facts and merit of the patriot act in taking rights away. I did list 2 in particular, just because someone is able to speak does not state freedom of speach has not been taken away to a degree, just because your house has not been searched does not mean it does not exist or take away yet another right. Yes they did, a bit different watching foreigners who are training to use an airplane than watching what our citizens read is it not? Umm I actually did list 2 amendments of the US constitution What does that matter? If you have, if you're secure enough, if you may or might not be is irrelevant when it comes to rights and protections given under the US constitution. If not the current administration, how about when some real wacky liberals are in charge with the same powers against it's citizens? There is more to look at then just the now. Again already did answer this, not to mention many of the provisions the government already had for use against terrorists. It works is all grand indeed unless it takes or threatens even if in the future basic rights away from US citizens. If it's for against terror than what is the resistance to wording it ONLY for terror and non US citizens? Again if it's for 'getting the terrorists' then why not simply have it state ONLY terrorists, or non US citizens me and many others who do not support the patriot act would then support it. Not to mention yet again many of the provisions placed into the patriot act under the word of terror the gov already had the power against terrorists. Much of the patriot act are laws some have been trying to pass for years and finally were able to after 9/11 they previously were unable to get them through because of constitutional issues.
I've seen no right that I had that has been taken away. Seems odd that an average American doesn't even know a right was taken away? Are you suggesting the two you listed have been taken away? It looks to me like you just randomly pulled two out of the constitution. What right has been taken away? Not if they happen to catch "our" citizens plotting to blow up our country. Inaction as the best course of action didn't work in the nineties. I can list them as well. But that doesn't mean they have been taken away. What rights have been taken away? It matters a lot. On one hand, you are saying rights are being taken away, of which I've still not seen. Nor have they affected me or anyone I know. It might affect terrorists, well, it HAS. And I have no problem with that. I disagree. You randomly pulled two items out of the constitution. I addressed one quite clearly. What rights have I given up? Whose to say a US citizen cannot be influenced to commit terrorism? If average Americans that are not checking out books from the library on how to blow up our country are not affected, then why make it an issue? What rights are being given up? Just because you list a passage or two from the Constitution, doesn't mean those rights have been given up. I can list passages from the Constitution randomly, but they wouldn't have any meaning if I wasn't using them to show something. What are you trying to show with what you listed? I still have no idea what right(s) I have given up. There seems no logical reason to oppose it.
I have listed them already. No the full rights have not been taken away, maybe eroded is a better term. Actually many 'average' americans agree with my opinion on the facts and that rights have been taken away and or eroded, even republicans. Not in the least random, freedom of speach has been eroded with the patriot act, US citizens fearing what they read for information purposes will be watched by the US government sure appears to be a breach to me. I thought you were against big government by the way? Sneak and peaks with no judicial oversite is not stepping over the wording of this particular amendment? Wow how do you honestly interpret that as not eroding the rights of the US citizens away? Just because you do not see it does not make it so. That's like saying guns were banned, I don't own a gun so the government didn't take guns away from me so it doesn't exist. Sorry but taking or eroding our rights however you wish to look at it is worse than a building being blown up killing thousands in my opinion. It goes against what this country was founded on, just because it 'could' catch one of our own citizens blowing up a building does not justify eroding or taking away any right given to the citizens of this great land under the US constitution. already listed them. Again how does it supposedly effect terrorists have anything to do with also effecting US citizens? It also does not matter if you've personally been effected by it, see my gun statement above. Yet again the provisions in the patriot act against 'terrorists' the government already had much of these powers against 'terrorists' BEFORE the patriot act. sigh, already answered. Unreasonable search and seisure, freedom of speach, even if not fully taken away they have been partially eroded even if you feel it does not effect 'you'. No body is saying a US citizen could not be capable of committing terrorist acts, again however I'd rather live with that fear than seeing ANY of our rights under the constitution taken away or eroded. Again it is not just about books being used to 'blow up the country', yet again many of the provisions in the patriot act the government already had power for in the uses of 'terror' and now have been expanded for other causes than just 'terrorism' Yet again freedom of speach, unreasonable search and seizure among others I have listed above.
I admit that the chance of they searching a fascist home is very little but can you tell us how do you know that home or papers have not been searched since they don't need to inform you? Your house could have been searched, your medical records, bank records could have been delivered by your doctor and bank to them without you never knowing about it since it is against law for your doctor or your bank to inform you. Have you ever thought that may be they didn't arrest Cindy Sheehan since it is too early in the game to start arresting people openly? Otherwise why they should create a new type of crime called "domestic terrorism" that is defined as ""influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." What does this mean? Is every one speaking or protesting against government a "domestic terrorist"? How long will it take before they start applying these laws and people start disappearing in prisons as "enemy combatant"?
I can't work with you here, if you are not going to list anything. As I said, I can randomly list items from the Constitution. That doesn't mean they have been taken away. And this is what you are doing here. If that's what you want to stick with, then there isn't much use going forward. To be honest, it looks like you are going on personal feeling here. I don't know what "facts" you refer to, but I see a lot of opinion and personal speculation. If you feel there are rights (not just randomly listing the constitution), then present them, or just keep pretending you did and we can call it a wrap! I've seen nothing at all to convince me the patriot act isn't good. If I were a terrorist or a crook, I might be against it. But I'm not. Convince me, hrb! Convince me I should be against it. You might just be able to change my mind!
Although I find it extremely far fetched, instances such as this is exactly what I'm afraid of. You give the gov a little, they convince enough people 'it's for your own good and we are not doing anything to you' by that time it could already be to late and yet another round goes on eroding basic rights of the citizens. Look at guns in themselves, law after law passed. Pro gun people 'including myself' are irate at all the gun laws passed, yet for some reason many of them fail to see the danger in allowing other rights such as what has been done by the patriot act to go unchallenged.
I thought I had, what actual 'facts' or quotes are you looking for? How it goes against rights of US citizens? Again I actually do not oppose the patriot act in itself, I oppose it being used against US citizens, this is my ONLY complaint. Terrorists, non us citizens I honestly have no problem with, US citizens however are a different ball game.
Very good. That is the reason that democracy and fundamental ideas such human rights, rule of law,... should not only be protected from so called Islamic terrorist but also from fascists among us such as Gtech. Both terrorist and fascists are dangers to our societies and cultures but while every one can see the dangers of terrorists, the fascist are hiding themselves behind the shield of patriotism.
How do I know the FBI doesn't have a picture of my first dog from 1972? I don't. So how could I prove they do or don't? Since I'm not a terrorist or a crook, I have nothing to worry about, do I? Maybe that's why you live in Canada? I try to limit myself on the conspiracy theories. I really should buy stock in a tin foil company though
LOL, I already knew that! j/k gtech, you all are nutty in my opinion, I'm the only sane one here! Or was that the only crazy one I honestly don't remember at the moment.
Trying for moral equivalence? "So called?" Defending terrorists again? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks Another week's worth Keep protecting your buds, I'll keep posting a week's worth at a time. I see people like you as a danger. Someone who makes excuses for terrorists and gives the blame for their actions to others. Those that would never do anything about anything, except complain and give comfort to terrorists. But then you are not American.
Because in 1972 and up until that patriot act it was ILLEGAL for FBI to spy on American citizens. For those who are older and remember Nixon and Watergate, it will be interesting to know that if Nixon had the patriot act, he could have asked the FBI to do the same break in that he had to resign over without getting into any trouble. What part of "domestic terrorism" crime as defined in patriot act is conspiracy theory? Do you mean it doesn't exist or do you mean that they are not going to use it? In the first case, I can quote directly from the patriot act and in the second case why should they make a law that they have no intention of using?
ahh abuses though, actually read a story on that today, there have been others in the past http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9800580/ However I still will not base my opinion on if abuses occur or not.
Is that why there were hundreds of files on John Kerry's treason? Never said it was. Was referring to your nutty conspiracy remarks: Have you ever thought that may be they didn't arrest Cindy Sheehan since it is too early in the game to start arresting people openly? Otherwise why they should create a new type of crime called "domestic terrorism" that is defined as ""influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." I'd be a lot more concerned if you were actually in favor of fighting terrorism. That you are not, gives me even more comfort in supporting the Patriot Act!
While your military service mainly consists of working in the kitchen (nothing wrong with that, somebody has to do it), I was doing more important works during my time. I have no problem understanding people like you, after all your hero Hitler was a corporal too and he had the same ideas that he is the only one doing something for Germany.
all i no is that america has no reason for invading iraq. I believe their only doing it because they saw them slowly rising in power and before they did america shut them up. Also beacuse they're a muslim country and bush hates muslims.