The numbers you quoted do not make sense.. 5 million total German military died in the entire war.. That quote makes it sound like they all died in Russia.. That is in the context you are quoting it. If you look at the numbers again you will see that all those numbers are Russian deaths.. The death toll was large, and it DID range in the millions.. Millions of Soviet deaths that is.. Beyond that, nearly every death that the Russian saw in the entire war took place on their own turf, ie., at home.. You are justifying rape? I have to listen to whack jobs (I'm not referring to you btw, you actually take some time to post valuable input...) talk about US war crimes, Vietnam, GITMO, Iraq, blah, blah, blah, 24/7.. All the while complaining about atrocities a few bad solders have committed in an attempt to justify what terrorism supports.. Neither is right, is my point.. I just think that it is important when talking about the USSR's involvement in WWII to be sure and keep a clear eye on the fact that the USSR was just the lessor of the two evils at the time.. They had their hand in Hitler's pocket with regard to non-aggression and a motive that while honorable in the sense that they would go on to kill Nazi's, not necessarily admirable in it's eventual outcome. I would have to say that without the US's contributions to the war effort, even before we entered the war, Europe would have fallen.. There would have been no Russian involvement in the war.. Russia would have abided by the non-aggression pact and kept to themselves.. They waited to be invaded first, hoping the Russian winter and lack of fuel would kill the Nazi's, which it kinda did.. It's not like they looked at pro-actively moving in to Germany to go get Nazi's before they were invaded. I do not doubt the Soviet contribution to the war effort, I just do not think it was key enough to claim full, or even partial credit for the end to the war.. Hitler and the Nazis would have fallen even if Russia had done nothing.
here we go again, I can say the same thing: we would survive even without you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4508901.stm 5 mls is a lot to you? I thought you quoted there were 7 mls Germans earlier? Do you know that 1,5 mls Germans died at Stalingrad alone ? At the wiki link you posted earlier it says 5,5 mln, not 5. On bbc website they say 3 mln Germans started to attack in 1941. So 5 does make sense.
Ah, no you cannot. Europe was falling to the Germans; most of it had fell already.. Russia did not because you had a pact with the people who took over Europe.. The US had no pact. A lot to lose, and everything to gain.. We were really all that was left. All that was standing in the way from Nazi's and the Japanese.. Russia had a deal in place.. Ah, yea, I quoted 7 million total German war casualties.. 5 million of them were military, 160k Jews, the rest civilians.. Did you even bother reading from the sources I cited? Had you, you would not be asking this question. The number of German solders to have died in Russia has been in dispute for years.. I will accept the range of 500k - 2.2 million.. This is based on the 500k - 1 million number historians listed today, and the 2.2 million the Germans claimed at the end of the war. Either way, it's still not accounting for the majority of German deaths in the war... That is the title you after, correct?
If you read that link properly yourself its 5,5, not 5mln. wow, so 500K Germans died for 4 years of war against 10 ml of Soviet troops? Did they have nukes or something? + 3.6 million Soviets died in German captivity, how did they get there then?? Even a simple logic is against you here
This is how you address my retort? You've still failed to substanciate your original claims.. It was a war against more than 10 million Soviet Troops, that 10 Million, is just the number of them that died... What Hitler and Napoleon lost to was the Russian winter, not necessarily the Russian Army.. A ground invasion through frozen tundra is pretty much destine to fail, especially since it had happened before. They were prisoners of war.. Captured in the Soviet union.. Dude, the Germans kicked ass in their way in.. If not for the cold and the long ass trip to Moscow, things may have been different... No offense, but you were lucky to have geography, weather and of course a large population of bodies on your side..
ya man, 10 mln Russian troops died due to winter at their homeland, they never faced that winter before, sh*t what claims I failed to substanciate? offense? None taken, I know that these kind of arguiments can only be between an American and a Russian. Your view is trully American (not sure the least or the most though ). My view isnt just Russian, but global. So we shall end on this.
Clearly I did not say the US won the war, I said the war is not won without the US. Remember this is an Anti-American thread. And also, I must say, to have a country is be in a bubble, we had (prior to 911) a really high quality bubble that we must repair. Honestly, despite the popular opinion, maybe countries need to start taking responsibility for their own situation. Its really not the United States fault that Europeans have poor attitudes. Here are some more stats on just how wicked the US is. From http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm Again, we have France and Germany demonstrating their high ideals. I defer back a few comments where the European seems to acurately describe the European condition. Again, I ask what is this illness?
Someone said it that US "saved" the world. The ilness called : try to look into the mirror and see maybe smth wrong with you, not with all others. Mind you, that "all others" are totally different in culture, religion, etc., but somehow share the same view. Doesnt this tell you anything ? hmm, so the success is in a charity? Whats that gotta do with this thread? On another side you fire up little conflicts everywhere, and you know, bad news are always 1st. You continue the route of USSR. Beware, you know what happened to Soviet Union
Why are we talking about Russia? Yes, they have made a good choice being an ally in WWII, but right afterwards they became fanatic with their own ideology and didn´t much to contribute to the well being of the world whatsoever. Would you now like Russia to be the police of the world? Have you heard about the kind of people in their government? You´re not making a lot of sense here and it´s hard to take someone seriously when he suggests a country run by criminals should have more of an impact on the rest of the world.
The Americans lost 1100 casualties including 337 killed fighting the French in the North Africa landings. The French had switched sides and had even sent 3 SS Divisions and a Vichy Facist brigade to fight on the eastern front. The French switched back to the american sie once they saw that Germany was going to be defeated. The Italians and Spanish did the same thing.
Russia was an ally of Hitler and also invaded Poland as part of the German-Soviet non-agression pact. The Russians killed more than 40,000 Polish Pows and buried them in mass graves - Katyn Forest Massacre Smolensk
Great posts everyone. So what I gather from this thread is that Europeans in general, are anti-American. As far as WWII goes, whatever your opinion may be, the United States answered the call. You are welcome.
Where do you get all this sh*t that europeans hate and are anti-american ? I would not expect from people that say are from democratic and open society to interpret we are hating or are anti just because we do not agree and have different views on some issues .... But ok if diex and others enjoy in the feeling they are hated by some europeans then so be it. Useles debates over origin, hate and everything....
Europeans don't dislike Americans, they just dislike obnoxious, Arrogant, boorish loudmouths, From any country.
Let's not forget that another Soviet claim to fame. Rank Number 2 on the list of most Jewish deaths Rank Number 1 on the list for most rapes of civilians Rank Number 1 on the list for the highest overall loss of Civilian, and Military Deaths...
No, they were in the war long before the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. In fact, FDR, buy todays standards would have been impeached for breaking several laws with regard to helping Europe, particularly the UK.. We were shipping weapons secretly to the allies for years.. Many of our boys back home joined forces with the RAF... The US involvement began almost from the beginning... Illegally, but it was there.
Yeah. Good Post. The US was involved in WW2 before Pearl Habor. The Fly Tigers were in the fight before the US offically entered the war and shot down more than 500 Japanese warcraft. The US was also supplying vast amount of lend lease aid and war supplies to France and the UK US forces were aksi deployed to Greenland and Iceland and were fighting U-boats in the North Atlantic