An alternative to Obamacare, starting with advice from Whole Foods

He also believes there needs to be reform.

Most of America believes that too. Except for the people making a lot of money the way things are. (which ironically even with a public option they still would.)

P.S. The public option is not free health care and tax payers will not be paying "100%" of the cost of someone elses health insurance. Really wish conservatives would stop fighting a battle they've already won.

Health care is too important to be a for profit business. It should be a basic human right like education.

 

The hatred of Obama is definitely a factor, and a huge fucking waste of time. He won, he's the president, better luck next time, move on.

That said, both sides are so entrenched in the habit of not agreeing with the other side and fighting just for the sake of fighting it is damned near impossible for the government to function. We need some actual statesmen to come to the front, slap the partisan idiots on both sides til they bleed, and get the group working together toward some answers (as the questions themselves are pretty fuckin' obvious).

Until the SOBs in office on both sides of the aisle start working as a team to create working solutions instead of worrying about their primary concerns ( ie - 1. getting re-elected and 2. getting as much money from their position as possible without going to jail)... we're gonna continue getting feel-good press-release politics that solves nothing whatsoever.

Regardless of who the president is, nothing can be solved by having both sides abjectly refuse to work constructively with the other.

 

Again, I suspect you don't want to be confused by the facts.

One study found that 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Nearly 80 percent of those filing for bankruptcy had health insurance. (Himmelstein, D, E., et al, “Medical Bankruptcy in the United States, 2007: Results of a National Study, American Journal of Medicine, May 2009.)

It has been estimated that around 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs. (Robertson, C.T., et al. “Get Sick, Get Out: The Medical Causes of Home Mortgage Foreclosures,” Health Matrix, 2008.)

These are costs that we all carry on one level or another.

And, for those with a business and perhaps employees, some predict 178,000 small business jobs will be lost by 2018 as a result of health care costs, $834 billion in small business wages will be lost due to high health care costs over the next ten years, and small businesses will lose $52.1 billion in profits to high health care costs. (The Economic Impact of Healthcare Reform on Small Business, Small Business Majority, June 2009.)

This has nothing to do with auto insurance. It has to do with the reality of shared risk - something the insurance industry has willfully shifted away from in pursuit of profit. The result is that society absorbs the risk and cost.

And you pay. Unfortunately, there is no escape. Your direct cost may remain well hidden, but you will, none the less, pay and pay dearly.

 

That's why public education, the post office and all other government run and funded agencies are failing.

What's wrong with making a profit? Profit = Success. Keep in mind, with something like health care, someone is ALWAYS going to make a profit regardless of the costs. Lower the costs, prices come down, profit still remains the same.

The problem is tort and secret deals... nothing else. The second you tell a private industry it cannot make a profit, its going to fail. Hell, we've been telling the auto industry that for years now. Look at them.

I guess we're not all on the same page here.

 

And that is a great reason to fix it, and make it better, not do away with it. Just because it's broken doesn't make it any less a vital need for every human being.

Nothing wrong with making a profit so long as it's not at the expense of denying people what should be basic human rights and or the health of our economy.... Huge health care bills are bankrupting people across our nation every day. The "free market" has had literally since the dawn of our nation to fix itself. It has proven decade after decade that it won't. At what point do we admit that and try another approach?

No one is telling private industry it can't make a profit. You're basing your fears on something that quite simply doesn't exist. The public option will provide competition. Literally all the health insurance companies would need to do to stay competitive is stop screwing over the American people. Basically do what comes naturally to them and create a better product. Let's not fool ourselves here, they do not want to create a better product and that is what this is all about. Everything else is just political posturing and misinformation.

Well if you agree that something needs to be done we can at least say we're reading the same book.

 

So, we should privatize police, fire, corrections and the military as well?

Oh, I forgot, that has or is already being tried, usually with disasterous consequences.

Nearly three-quarters of American cities have contracted out the removal of illegally parked cars. - "District police officers and towing companies have for years concealed towed cars from their owners and then charged them expensive storage fees, the D.C. inspector general's office has found." http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-457452.html

Privatized fire fighting is an increasing phenomenon, particularly in the west, and is resulting in a serious disparity of services - "Quite a different form of private fire protection is being funded by large insurance companies. Last year, Chubb Corp. began offering fire protection to its clients in 13 Western states as long as their homes have a replacement value of at least $1 million. According to an Associated Press report, Fireman’s Fund has retained private fire fighting companies in California; AIG employs private firms to dispense fire-retardant foam on valuable homes as soon as there is a wildfire threat for clients in the 200 wealthiest Western zip codes." http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/30-4

CCA (Corrections Corporation of America) operates quite a few private prisons. In 1996, "Two Oregon sex offenders escaped from the [INS Detention Center]. However, nobody in Texas knew CCA was housing violent out-of-state criminals in the minimum-security detention center. The two were caught about 10 days later on the outskirts of Dallas. The chairman of the Texas Board of Criminal Justice said that he fears Texas is becoming a "dumping ground" for the worst kinds of prisoners from other states. The inmates cannot be prosecuted for escape in Texas (not a crime to escape from private company) nor can they be prosecuted for escape in Oregon (they committed no crime in Oregon). - http://corrections.oregonafscme.com/private/recent_escapes_from_private_pris.htm

As far as the military goes, a single word captures it all - Blackwater.

Yep, the free market is the key to fixing everything. Believe that and I will sell you some land in Florida.

 

Apple, meet Orange.

 

"...all other government run and funded agencies are failing."

Your words, not mine.

Where is this clear demarcation between free market and government intrusion that you seem to believe exists? Or, more precisely, where do you draw the line?

 

You've confused federally funded agencies with those that are provided for locally as a form of common defense. Basic services that provide for common defense or safety, which includes the military as well as fire, police, etc. are a fundamental part of our state and local governments. You are way off base here in your comparison.

Once again, apples to oranges.
Why not try addressing an apples to apples comparison for once instead of trying to start an argument. You're boring me.

 

No, public services such as police, fire, prisons, libraries, etc. - any system that is characterized by equal access to resources by all individuals - is socialistic by definition.

You need to get your definitions straight. (The above definition is taught in most basic macro-economics classes.)

Thus, my question still stands. Where is this clear demarcation between "socialism" and cowboy capitalism that you seem to think exists?

BTW, you seem to have completely missed the documentation about the costs of inadequate health coverage - costs that you pay. Or, are you going to simply ignore the facts there too?

 

You know, I really don't see why so many people, who have health care are so angry about trying to get together a plan so others can afford it too.
If you don't want the Governments Health Care, then don't get it.
What's the problem ?
You don't need it, don't sign up.

Either way, you continue to pay for uninsured people the way you are now through higher premiums and taxes, just like you have been doing for over 30 years and it's getting more expensive.....or we get a handle on it and hopefully save you some money on premiums.

You are going to pay either way. The question is, how much more. The way it is now, you are going to pay more every year.

Now...do you want that fixed, or not?

Personally, I am so tired of hearing people who have health care bitch about it, that I would rather scrap the whole idea, and sit back and wait 5 years for them to start bitching about how they can't afford health care.
It's going to happen. The gap is widening everyday, has been for a very,very, long time.

Everyone thinks they are safe, until it happens to them, then you see them on T.V. saying "we never thought it could happen to us" like a bunch of idiots.
Wake up people. No one is completely safe. Ask Maddoff's clients. they thought they were safe for over 20 years. Never knew what hit 'em. BAM...Broke!

Anything, can change for anyone, any day. You can't buy your way out of life's happenings.

 

Really? I think you missed that part about "provide for the common defense." By the way smarty pants, that's in that "Preamble" to the Constitution you tried to refer to previously. I'd suggest you re-read it.

No, you need to just read what you wrote.

Ah, wow.. another new question.. Already told you sonny, I'm not taking the bait. No matter how many ways you ask it, now matter how many times you ask, you are not going to get the answer you are looking for.

No, what I am going to do is do what I've done every day of my working life. Get up, go to work, pay my bills and continue to be a productive member of society.

If you prefer to whine and bitch all day, you'll never get any further than you are right now. That's the problem with you radical liberals. You've never once tried to actually be part of the solution. You'd rather be part of the problem, while laying blame on those who are part of the solution for the problem.

In the end, you guys ARE THE PROBLEM!!!!

FYI, Join me in the BUY-COTT of Whole Foods. There are some great St. Louis and Texas area Whole Foods locations where you can get great food from a great company that is not afraid to stand up to lunatics and tyrannical socialistic minded leaders like Obama.

As a small business myself, I both support Whole Foods Decision and John Mackey, and agree with the following statement:

"the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system.”

It is both my official position and my companies position as well. FYI, we, like Whole Foods take care of our workers and PAY their health care!!!

Join the BUY-COTT
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2009/08/31/daily31.html

 

Gee, I would have thought police, fire and other public safety agencies had far more to do with domestic tranquility than common defense. Unless, of course, one considers us to be under attack from within.

 

You wrote:

Quite an assertion to stand on in the face of the data I provided.

Rarely hit their limit? - 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Nearly 80 percent of those filing for bankruptcy had health insurance.

The costs that are passed on are passed on by the provider of care, not the insurance carriers? - 178,000 small business jobs will be lost by 2018 as a result of health care costs, $834 billion in small business wages will be lost due to high health care costs over the next ten years, and small businesses will lose $52.1 billion in profits to high health care costs.

FWIW, "Bankruptcy filings by American consumers and businesses soared 38 percent in 2007 to a total of 850,912, the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts said on Tuesday...The vast majority of the 2007 filings -- 822,590 of them -- involved individuals. However, business bankruptcy cases also rose, jumping 44 percent to 28,322 filings, the court office said." (http://www.reuters.com/article/telecomm/idUSN155757020080416)

You will pay. We all do...

 

A common refuge for small minds - Ad Hominem

 

Truth hurts.

BTW, ever heard of "multi-quote"?

 

You can't change people's mind about this. They all have this image in their heads that the only people who don't have health insurance are illegals or poor minorities and that their tax dollars will be paying for that.

As long as they are ignorant to the fact that they have already been paying through the nose for 30 years for uninsured Americans, and basically getting ripped off by insurance companies....and continually ignore that this isn't a race of poverty issue, you can just let them keep paying the way the have always been. They get more satisfaction if they get to pay it their way, rather than accept that we can actually help everyone, and control the costs.

It's a common American attitude, "I got mine, why should I help other people get theirs".
It's always like that until it's their family on the chopping block for circumstances that are beyond their control, then it will be "why didn't the Gov do something about this?"

But most times, it's just GP. Party line only and as long as it's not my party's idea, I will fight against it no matter what because no one else could possibly have any solutions or good ideas.

It's really a waste of breath. I keep saying, I say scrap the whole idea, and let Americans fend for themselves. 2 years from now people will start bitching that costs are breaking them, and we should "do something about it" and it will be too late.

Everyone who "has" now, cannot possibly conceive of a time in the future where they will "not have", so why change anything. "I'm fine".
It's classic American arrogance, tunnel vision and selfishness. "give me mine", "give me mine", "give me mine" and get out of my way, until something happens, and then it's "Where is the Government?"

 

Here is the reason you cannot change peoples minds.

Claim is made that there are 45 million uninsured.

Reality?

20 million ARE illegals
2 million are receiving military health care
6.5 million are receiving Medicare
6.5 million are receiving Medicade
4.5 million CHOOSE not to purchase health care

REALITY? Out of 307 Million Americans there are about 5.5 million uninsured.

Right now, over 60% of all health care coverage is purchased by Employer Sponsored programs. Another 10% is individually purchased. The remaining 30% includes Medicade, Medicare, Military, Congress, Government employer coverage.

The reason people's minds do not change is because we realize that Democrats are trying to lob all coverage like, Medicare/Medicade, VA stuff, etc., into this 45 million number. If you have actually read the bill you'd see that these things are eliminated under the Obama plan. Doing that will of course generate these over bloated numbers of 45 million uninsured.

The reason we will not change our minds is because 302 million of us, do not want to pay for 5 million.

My suggestion to you guys is that you read all 1017 pages of the bill. When you do that, run a business and buy your own health care and that of your employees. Then come back and bitch. Let's see how much your mind has changed.

 

Yes, some people really don't ant to be confused by facts.

And where some would use discussion to develop their thinking on an issue, others simply use it as a soapbox to declare their own importance/omnipotence.

Kind of sad...

 

You act like you are the only adult on the forum running a business.

First of all NO ONE is proposing to insure illegals.

Second, you are paying for uninsured people NOW and you are getting raped with the increase in premiums and taxes, but it doesn't outrage you because it's not itemized, so you can't see it on your bill. But YOU ARE PAYING NOW ! You have been for years. And it's unregulated.

Third, everything is good for you now, but what happens to you and your employees 5 years from now when premiums are breaking your bottom line and you can no longer afford to offer it ? It's going to happen. It's happening to businesses NOW. Big businesses with thousands of employees.

307 million Americans includes children, prisoners, dependents, disabled..everyone. That is the total number of all people in the country so that number alone is not a direct representation people who are eligible, and able to work.

This is not a Government hand out, it's attempt to get control of costs, and give people an option to get something that they can afford. It's not free.

If you don't need it, or don't want it, Don't get it ! But if the bottom falls out of your business, where will you turn to insure yourself and your family ?
With the current system, you will be screwed. Just like millions of other middle class, working, white, All Americans. Dems, and Reps. God forbid someone in your family has a pre-existing condition, trying to find coverage, or your current insurance company goes belly up. Then what ?

Don't say it can't happen. Shearson Lehman, and Merryl Lynch were 2 of the oldest companies in America, older than a lot of present day insurance companies, and they, along with a few thousand banks and mortgage companies are now GONE ! Putting hundreds of thousands of educated, working class people on the street, without Health Insurance, and no where to turn to get it. So we should just say screw them, huh ?

So let's just let it continue. Let insurance companies continue to reap record profits, deny coverage to people, and charge the tax payer $4k for a $400 wheel chair when billing medicare and veterans health services....tax dollars. YOURS !

Every Gov accountant has been warning for years that if we don't get a handle on the situation, it will break our economy in a way that may be able to be recovered from.
We should just ignore that huh, because YOU, are O.K. right now.
This isn't about YOU Mia, it's about US. The United States of America.

If you could for once step outside of your "I got mine " mentality and think about the country as a whole and the future of everyone in it, you may see things in a different light. Every argument you have about this is about YOU. the big picture is, if the companies that you make money from and with have a problem, YOU have a problem. You do not survive in your own economy bubble, printing your own money, with your own system of Government.

If you have a better idea...Let's hear it !