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Alan Spector, Republican US Senator for Pennsylvania, Switches to the Democrats

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by bogart, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #41
    Yeah most of them are leftists with an R in front of their name, it's necessary in some districts to act like a republican to take advantage of the republicans that vote across the board.

    They are far, far from extreme right wing. Far even from being right wing.
     
    ncz_nate, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  2. pizzaman

    pizzaman Active Member

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    #42
    that is what is presented by the republican party for the past 12 years. i do not like them regardless of what they are called
     
    pizzaman, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  3. Zibblu

    Zibblu Guest

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    #43
    ... ncz-nate, you are really taking a turn for the worse bud. quoting Glenn Beck now?

    Look man, I know you think that this is just history repeating itself, but I think you are sorely mistaken.

    The damage that Bush did to the GOP is going to be long lasting. If they are going to recover it will be some years from now and as a much more liberal party than they are now (at least socially and probably in all ways.)

    Furthermore, you must realize that the very demographics of this country are moving rapidly in the Democrats favor. I do not think this is just a part of a cycle, I think it's a real movement towards progressiveness in this country.

    If the Democrats do the smart thing and get real universal health care passed then they will remain in power for a very long time to come because the American people will absolutely LOVE universal health care. Once they realize how great it is. Once they realize that the "boogie man" the Republicans have been talking about is actually great.

    How many Americans want to get rid of Medicare? Remember the right wingers made all of the same attacks against Medicare that they are making against universal health care now.

    The GOP may not lose anymore seats in the House in 2010 (they may even gain a few back if the economy has not recovered) but I suspect they will be under 40 Senators.

    And unless things really go very badly, they look to have little chance in 2012.

    I think this is a real sea change for America, obviously I believe for the better. The country is definitely not becoming more conservative. Look at how younger people are voting. 18 to 29 year olds voted for Obama over McCain 68% to 32%. Yes. You read that correctly. Seriously, read that number again and think about that for awhile. Just sit there and think about it for a real long time and maybe you'll start to understand what's happening.
     
    Zibblu, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  4. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #44
    What I'm saying is real conservatism is growing, with fury behind it.

    Oh trust me I know about that. The democrats also know a lot about that, which is why our borders are wide open even after there's been considerable pressure on all of them to close them. "Come on over, we'll give you free health care, free education, and welfare just as long as you vote for us and reproduce as much as possible."

    I know the direction you think this country is headed, it's not gonna happen though. We still have a lot of people here that believe in freedom, and the more you alienate these people, the faster we will see a break up of this country. Now I'm not saying I want to see America get broken up into pieces, or that I would even support something like this, but at the rate we're going it's the most probable outcome.
     
    ncz_nate, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  5. Zibblu

    Zibblu Guest

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    #45
    What you call "real conservatism" is actually a small fringe group that is nowhere near as powerful as you'd like to imagine it is. I think we already went through this with the 2008 election. There's just not that many people out there that want the kind of free market system that Ron Paul is all about.

    I will agree that Americans are moving towards FREEDOM, I just guess we disagree on what that means. When I think of the word freedom I think of civil liberties. When you think of it, it seems you think of low taxes? The right to have no health care?

    I know the hard core libertarian view point of Paul and others like him (and I assume yourself) is that there's no difference between economic freedoms (ie: "free market") and civil liberties, but I just don't agree with that as a basic premise. I don't see reasonable taxation or government programs like national health care as impeding upon my freedom. I do see laws against gay marriage, abortion, and marijuana use as impeding my freedom and as far as I know Paul is only 1 for 3 on those three issues.
     
    Zibblu, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  6. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #46
    I'm not talking about Ron Paul libertarians. I'm talking about Michael Savage conservatives, and yes, there's millions of them.

    You're for civil liberties, that's great.. so am I. But you can't say you're moving towards FREEDOM just because of that. I believe you said it yourself, there is another type of freedom, that you apparently don't support. Economics is kind of a big deal, last time I checked we're facing an economic crisis - not an abortion, gay marriage, or marijuana crisis. That's the important one, the one that actually affects all people, so don't tell me you're for FREEDOM just because you're right on a few unimportant issues.

    Admit this, you do not support freedom on the issues that matter like economics.

    --

    BTW I'm surprised you donated to Paul for his civil libertarian positions considering you don't even know what they are. He isn't "1/3" on those issues, he wants to leave that dumb shit to the states.
     
    ncz_nate, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  7. Zibblu

    Zibblu Guest

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    #47
    I disagree fundamentally that those issues are unimportant. I personally know people who have been arrested and put in jail because of marijuana laws. Being put in JAIL is a pretty big deal to me. That's truly taking away someone's freedom.

    A 3% tax hike on rich people does not take away anyone's freedom.

    I also disagree with the idea that the way to solve the economic crisis is through more "economic freedom" what economic freedom (ie no government regulations on the markets) leads to is concentrated power for the very wealthy. Capitalism is great. But it needs bumpers.

    ---

    RE: Ron Paul's positions on civil liberties, I disagree strongly with the concept of leaving that "dumb shit" to the states. This is America and nowhere in America should someone's civil liberties be left to the states. Sure that's a better position than most politicians who won't even go that far, but it's simply not far enough.
     
    Zibblu, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  8. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #48
    Good point.

    Would they be taking away their freedom if was a 90% tax hike? Grey areas, it does definitely take away freedom to a degree.

    Regulations also definitely take away freedom. (see approval rating thread)

    No, corporations lead to concentrated power for the very wealthy, and so do regulations. As I say in the other thread, your positions are not at all "for the little guy" that so many are lead to believe, people like myself who have little money cannot compete with the big guys with all the money since they can pay for the government regulations.

    Ever hear of the 10th Amendment? I agree in some sense that people should be completely free in every state but that's going against the Constitution and undermining the powers of the states.
     
    ncz_nate, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  9. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #49
    It's pretty sad that we live in a world where speaking your mind and sticking to your convictions is hateful, racist or bigoted; Miss California - vs compromising integrity and honor for the sake of getting re-elected is openly applauded; Spector

    Strange days ahead.
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  10. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #50
    Way out on the far right there is a mixture of outright lies and delusions. Its sad.

    During this decade, we saw the closest thing to approximating the libertarian ideal: Lower taxes and unregulated business.

    What occurred? The largest, worst economic disaster since the great depression in the 1930's. That is 70 years of economic history within the US....and this is the worst world wide experience in that time.

    Total up all the blame for the economic problems that occurred...but it starts and lays most heavily on the mortgage industry that supplied endless mortgages with little or few credit checks. That is bad business.

    But wait the mortgage originators don't have to hold the mortgages. They sell them to Fannie and Freddie...and in the last part of the 90's and dramatically in this decade they packaged them and sold them to investors.

    BINGO. There goes financial responsibilty down the drain. Which originators give a r@ts @ss about responsible mortgage lending if they can push those cr@ppy mortgages on someone else and earn high volume fees in the process.

    Anybody look at the balloon mortgages that were written in significant numbers to unsuspecting and financially naive home owners. Those are sophisticated investment vehicles ....roughly equivalent to gambling. Highly irresponsable.

    State banking regulators started investigating this in the early part of the decade. The Bush administration changed rules essentially banning state regulation and consumer protection.

    Meanwhile the largest financial institutions established non regulated entities to create credit swaps. More unregulated high leveraged financial risk.

    The promise of lower taxes was that it was going to be the biggest incentive to economic boom. More money in our pockets supposedly meant more good business decisions in which the Market...would make better more efficient and ultimately more profitable decisions...creating more wealth.

    BIG BS. It doesn't work that way. Money flowed into arenas that were showing the most short term profitability....the financial/real estate world.

    That didn't create sustainable/ and real growth. It didn't do a thing for the one sustainable growth element shown over decades....improvements in efficiency.

    On top of that the far Right never practised what it promised. Federal govt expenses went through the roof.

    Do you realize why the Republicans in Congress didn't put out an alternative budget...as they promised to do? Its because anything they come up with is going to be covered in billions upon trillions of debt. Go ahead do the hard work. Try and come up with something....and take it out to the public. See what happens.

    On top of these absurdities...the libertarian perspective had a big increase in visibility through Ron Paul...but its real penetration is miniscule....absurdly miniscule. Take any fringe on that group and go ahead and show people real numbers of real followers. The numbers are incredibly low. Dramatically, fringe oriented low.

    But if not...then show real numbers. Don't waste the rest of our times...by claiming all sorts of unsubstantiated growth numbers. Show them. That is reality.

    Getting back to the OP: Spector left the Republican party...because he was facing a minority primary...wherein a diminishing number of members in his own party...decidely to an extreme right position...were going to slaughter him. He had the best data available....hard polling numbers. Meanwhile...that same party continues to shrink within the state. That group of folks may be getting dramatically louder...but they are similarly growing dramatically smaller.

    In real life....just because people scream ever louder...it doesn't mean they grow ever more populous. In fact in the current environment it is the exact opposite.
     
    earlpearl, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  11. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #51
    You're way off on your facts here.

    Lowered taxes, yes. Result: More revenue was brought in by lower taxes than not.

    Unregulated business, no. Unregulated Government Controlled Lending Institutions and the CRA, yes.

    Result: Government backed loans forced on people and businesses that the government knew would not be able to pay for - hence, housing crash, markets, credit, etc...

    Oh, and btw, guess who was at the helm??? Carter, Clinton, and Barney's bed buddy, Pelosi, to name a few...

    Were you born yesterday?
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  12. Bushranger

    Bushranger Notable Member

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    #52
    When speaking your mind IS hateful, racist or bigoted, why is it sad when you're called out for it?
     
    Bushranger, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  13. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #53
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  14. Bushranger

    Bushranger Notable Member

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    #54
    Sure, like i'm even going to answer your pathetic put-down without talking to you like the pig you are. Ever heard of it's not what you say, it's how you say it?

    I'm one of those bright sparks that calls it like I see it, for what it is. She can say what she likes & if her GAY judge wants to vote her down because he took offense at her response, he can do that too.
     
    Bushranger, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  15. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #55
    ^ Kids...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  16. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #56
    How did she deliver her opinion wrong?

    Last time I checked it was prissy boy Hilton who called her a bitch and she followed up by saying she loved and prayed for him. Ha! Just goes to show how hypocritical and filled with hate the left is.
     
    ncz_nate, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  17. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #57
    In reality she did nothing wrong. However, we are now all living in an altered state of reality. That altered state dictates a whole new set of rules. Things like, if you disagree with Obama, you must be a racist. If you were raised in a hetero family and live a hetero life style, you must be a bigot. If you disagree with a certainly religious philosophy, you must not be tolerant.

    I kinda miss reality where we all had the freedom to speak our minds without fear of retribution. Its sad that we live in a world now, where everyone who speaks has to think before doing so so as not to offend or be insensitive to someone else. Doing so IMO is disingenuous. In other words when you compromise your opinion or values and say what you think is "appropriate" vs what you believe, you're doing an injustice to yourself and those around you. You are no longer real. You are now in that alternate reality we like to call Moonbat Land.
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  18. Bushranger

    Bushranger Notable Member

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    #58
    May 1st 2009 7:59 am The area was blocked off. Dude, get a fucking clue.
    Coward's back! Feeling better Mia?
     
    Bushranger, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  19. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #59
    For you maybe Petey, We're still in April.

    Kids... :rolleyes:
     
    Mia, Apr 30, 2009 IP
  20. Bushranger

    Bushranger Notable Member

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    #60
    What a strange lad you are Jerry!
     
    Bushranger, Apr 30, 2009 IP