Ad Churning and Irrelevant Site Wake Up Call

Discussion in 'Co-op Advertising Network' started by joewood, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. sue

    sue Peon

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    #21
    Just for the record, Link Vault ads are more than 'semi-permanant' as they only change if you delete them or the site there on is removed. And also, you can choose only to display your own language, and they are also category based (providing enough sites are in the category).

    I think when webby (Alan) said they where not categorised this was when the network just started, and there wasn't enough domains..
     
    sue, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  2. iShopHQ

    iShopHQ Peon

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    #22
    I admit I didn't read through the whole thread, but I think there's some misunderstanding of Google's stance on link churn. They didn't say they are going to penalize sites that have a lot of rotating links, they said that those links will be devalued in terms of any ranking benefit they provide to the linked site.

    Showing co-op ads won't hurt the site you are showing them on, nor with they hurt the sites they point to. They just won't help in terms of better organic positioning.

    A site can't be hurt by inbound links. If that were the case, I'd put links to competitor sites in the co-op and spend my time submiting links to their sites to all the link farms and then watch their position plummet.

    Google's intent is to minimize the benefit of link advertising on rankings. In order to get substantial benefit from a text link advertisment, that link has to be there 6-8 months. That means some people will give up on link advertising while others will simply buy placement for 6 months or more at a time.

    It will also provide some added value to non-reciprocal directory links, as those links, once submitted, will be there (presumably) forever.
     
    iShopHQ, Apr 15, 2005 IP
    T0PS3O and minstrel like this.
  3. joewood

    joewood Peon

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    #23
    Thank you for making exactly my point. At some time in the near future the successful engines will completely discount churned links - not penalize but make them useless.

    Since it is technically basic, why not get the best of all worlds by having *some* ads be semi-static?
     
    joewood, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  4. digitalpoint

    digitalpoint Overlord of no one Staff

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    #24
    Why doesn't AdSense make some ads semi-static?
     
    digitalpoint, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  5. joewood

    joewood Peon

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    #25
    Great point. But don't the same ads actually tend to appear on those same pages when they have bought the top position for the phrases? If so, I would call that semi-static. And, I bellieve I have seen benefit from Adsense ranking-wise when I purchase the top levels - presumably because the links are semi-static.

    Even if not, the ads are on highly targeted pages and have strong value exclusively as advertising. And, I believe AdSense's goal is 100% advertising. I know yours is too, but if you have the opportunity to get a free ride for ranking, why not?

    I think the advertising angle here is great too, but again I'm not going to sell any swing sets on a Yugoslovian camera site. (I know you are working on that and appreciate it.)

    My point is, if it is technically basic to do, and can both have value as a ranking tool and as an advertising tool, why not make some of them stick for a while? The best of both worlds.
     
    joewood, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  6. wendydettmer

    wendydettmer Peon

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    #26
    from my understanding of adsense/adwords, you would not see any ranking benefit because they do not allow for bots to follow the link, so they dont' count as backlinks.
     
    wendydettmer, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  7. joewood

    joewood Peon

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    #27
    I think that backs up my argument even more. If true, they are 100% advertising, and worth it.

    The coop is great, but ads and backlinks are 50%/50% of the benefit (maybe 20%/80%)-- why drop 50%+ of the reason you do something when it is easy to fix?
     
    joewood, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  8. wendydettmer

    wendydettmer Peon

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    #28
    Not sure how it backs up your argument, but that's not the point.

    The point that Shawn and others have made in the past is that this is an ad network, and the goals and direction of the network are towards that end. If there are additional benefits on the side, great, but it's not going to be tailored to meet those needs.
     
    wendydettmer, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  9. kepa

    kepa Peon

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    #29
    I love the network and I'm all for discussions about how to make it better so it will be with us forever...

    Regarding, static vs. rotating, I do believe that is a possible long term solution, in conjuntion with theming and could work -- IMO random, but semi-static over time is a viable solution for fairness -- but even for those against it, why can't it be doled out as a function of weight? Plus, wouldn't a longer static link be valued more in LSI? Thought to be part of the content of the page as opposed to just a rotating AD?

    As a side note, why do we still fool ourselves into thinking it is just solely an ad network? We all know why most of us joined :wink: Other than it's name, right now, it pretty much says link exchange to me. This is evidenced because the language problem is still not addressed. There is absolutely no advertising value added to an *AD NETWORK* when you are showing ads in another language -- especially one where 99% of your target market doesn't even recognize, much less speak. That is link exchange pure and simple, yet I'm not even sure that is good "link exchange" practice. Get the language problem out of the way and I think a lot of us would be really happy.
     
    kepa, Apr 15, 2005 IP
  10. skattabrain

    skattabrain Peon

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    #30
    shawn, in all due respect ... i know this is an "ad network" but that's not what made coop to be so widely adopted.

    once link churn penalties are in full effect the "ad network" will suffer huge abandonment.
     
    skattabrain, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  11. Infiniterb

    Infiniterb Well-Known Member

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    #31
    If theming takes hold, less links will be rotated on each page so the chances of googlebot to see a link, track it, and return to see the same link again are greater than the current implementation.
     
    Infiniterb, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  12. skattabrain

    skattabrain Peon

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    #32
    yeah, that's good, but it still is link churning ... if it were me ... the links would still be cached for a month or more. being devious... i would want even more, but that would make it hard for new sites to get moving.

    (think of the PR possibilities)

    in any event, i hope something changes soon ... the party is almost over. (if it isn't already)
     
    skattabrain, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  13. skattabrain

    skattabrain Peon

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    #33
    sorry for double post ...

    shawn, why not post a poll to see where your membership stands? maybe spinning off a 2nd network would be feasible to you, aside from caching it's all written.
     
    skattabrain, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  14. digitalpoint

    digitalpoint Overlord of no one Staff

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    #34
    Creating a link exchange network is nothing I'm interested in though. That's the main issue.

    From a technical standpoint it would be easy to do, but that's really why I have no interest in it, because it's easy.
     
    digitalpoint, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  15. skattabrain

    skattabrain Peon

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    #35
    i only have interest in counting beans .. i don't care if it's simple ... actually .. that's better. :)

    LOL
     
    skattabrain, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  16. Infiniterb

    Infiniterb Well-Known Member

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    #36
    Well, once theming takes hold I think people will be much happier. The static links...eh, while good from a SERP stand point I don't see why the issue needs to be pushed. The tool is free, and Shawn doesn't want to do it. There have been countless threads on the issue. Themed links will definitely benefit everyone, and would likely be put into more prominent positions on pages instead of the footers since the links would be somewhat related to the content (very loosely mind you) and be more like adsense minus the javascript.
     
    Infiniterb, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  17. T0PS3O

    T0PS3O Feel Good PLC

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    #37
    As put by IshopHQ in his excellent post, being penalized for it won't happen.

    Worst case scenario:

    The 'churning' links are devalued or don't even count at all for your rankings. So you loose this network's 'bonus' feature.
     
    T0PS3O, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  18. skattabrain

    skattabrain Peon

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    #38
    bonus ... LOL.

    ok ... ok .. i get it.

    i will drop it once and for all for static links.

    regarding the like adsense comment ... last time i checked ... google pays the site owner for clicks ... thereby giving webmasters reason to put the links in the open ... encouraging click-through. so in my opinion, as an ad network ... without monetary benefit ... why would you encourage users to leave your site so they can go and buy camera equipment on someone elses site that you have no direct affliation with, only to have other sites bury your potential link in the footer?
     
    skattabrain, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  19. basicus

    basicus Peon

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    #39
    I think the network works fine as it is. Actually it has brought us alot of new customers :)
     
    basicus, Apr 19, 2005 IP
  20. Infiniterb

    Infiniterb Well-Known Member

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    #40
    Because there has been talks about placement of links and the value google gives them. For instance, a link in the footer is way down at the bottom of the page in the footer. Chances are, it's in a spot no one really cares to look and thus is of no value to the user. If the link is near the actual content, it may seem more relevent. This may not help you directly, but by not hiding links and making your site more user friendly, you're likely to benefit in the long run. Remember, design for your user and things will work out better for you in the long run.
     
    Infiniterb, Apr 19, 2005 IP