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A pro says my HTML/CSS approach sucks. What should I do?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by Gary-SC, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #41
    The more code a CPU needs to digest to get a job done, the slower you will see the result. Usually not an issue until you have dozens or even hundreds of processes fighting for the same CPU time. The worst offender I see all of the time is all of the Google garbage on many sites. My computers (all four of them) constantly choke as a result, oftentimes stopping execution of processes for minutes at a time. Sometimes it gets so bad that it is faster to do a soft reboot than to wait for the CPU to process the junk.

    When I wrote my database program to run my website one of the things I did was to IMMEDIATELY save data input for EVERY record. At one time I used to wait and batch save records, but after a few times of CPU choking and losing hours of input, I changed to immediate saving. Now the most I can lose is the changes to the record I am working on.

    Any time that I am coding I save every few minutes for the same reason. I once lost 8 hours of coding by failing to do that. Never again.

    One result of this is my coding style. Do it ONCE, then REUSE if possible. Less code, less debugging, faster execution, better results.
    SEMrush
    When I was still using my 16k, 1mhz Apple II+ I once wrote a simple spelling checker in machine language. It was 1200 BYTES long and would CORRECTLY verify spelling for OVER 90% OF ENGLISH WORDS. Where it fell down was with words with many different spellings (so, sow, sew, for example) and with foreign words that did not conform to English SPELLING RULES. And, yes, it may not look like it, but English spelling follows some very simple rules which when known makes English a very simple language to spell correctly. The major problem with English is which spelling to use when (your, you're, yore, for example).

    Years ago a salesman came to see me. He was selling shipping supplies. Since I was shipping about 5 packages a day then, never running out of supplies was important. His basic schtick was that if I bought from him I would never need to worry about ever running out of supplies. So, I started buying from him and continued buying from him until he had to quit the business for health reasons. And he was right, I never ever ran out of supplies once I started buying from him.

    Several years into the relationship he told me his story. When he was just starting out, his mentor, an older salesman, told him that he had to make some choices as to how he would sell. The choices he was given were to sell at a low price, to give superior service, and to give superior quality. His mentor also told him that he could choose ONLY TWO since it was IMPOSSIBLE to do all three. He chose service and quality.

    About two weeks before I needed more supplies I would call him. Even though he was based AN HOUR AWAY, he would DELIVER the supplies the NEXT DAY. It did not matter if it was a $25 sale or a $200 sale, he was ALWAYS there the next day. To this day I have no idea how his prices compared to anyone else. I simply did not care. He never let me down.

    I am still in the same business still selling the same items. My prices are some of the highest in the business. I strive to out-service and out-quality my competitors both when dealing with customers and when dealing with vendors. One of the results is that when I need to buy something from a vendor I do not need to nickel and dime the vendor to get a price I can live with. In fact, at times I will offer the vendor MORE than he is asking.

    Bottom line is to give the BEST QUALITY and BEST SERVICE that you can and your customers (in this case your boss) WILL NOT CARE ABOUT THE PRICE if it is reasonable. If you follow that rule in your coding career you will never be out of work for long and eventually you can set your own prices/salaries.
     
    mmerlinn, Jul 3, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #42
    I've been trying to do that. Trying Webflow extensively despite @deathshadow 's comments about how it wastes time, in the end, was one way to learn how NOT to do something. I have downloaded Pingendo app to try it like the pro guy said, albeit not quite as extensively as I experimented with Webflow (I didn't need to; they are very similar), and I looked through the official Bootstrap documentation site, downloaded their starter template and looked through how they did things in Chrome Dev Tools. Doing so actually confirmed in my mind that @deathshadow 's charges against Bootstrap framework were valid and correct, and I found it quite clumsy and time-consuming to build a site with it unless I were willing to use their components "as is."

    So much this:
    I will take this to the core of my heart and continue! In still a relatively new adventure of learning this stuff, it is becoming something more than just a job my boss gave me to do. In general, I want to do a good job, and I want to be proud of what I do. To me, coding is not an exception to that. I admit, though, that I'm somewhat surprised to see how common it is to see the shortcut mindset everywhere. Don't they want to go beyond the "just my job, have to deal with it" level? I am finding a great level of satisfaction in learning this stuff and writing something I can say to myself, "I did this, and it works well." and then "I rewrote this, and I did it with less code."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  3. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #43
    Awesome. =) Hope it all works out.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  4. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #44
    That is the difference between the movers and shakers and those that wonder why they go nowhere in life. Look around you. That attitude permeates the 'unwashed' masses everywhere.

    There are three kinds of people in the world,
    Those who MAKE things happen,
    Those who WATCH things happen, and
    Those who WONDER what happened.
     
    mmerlinn, Jul 3, 2019 IP
    sarahk likes this.
  5. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #45
    #4. Those who THINK they can do it better then TAKE all the time in the world to do it. Then WONDER why they aren't making any money as they WATCH their competitors MAKE it happen.
     
    NetStar, Jul 5, 2019 IP
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  6. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #46
    NB: emphasis added.
    Your premise is not in evidence.

    The fact is, it just doesn't take more time to do it well in the first place. Factor in debugging and maintenance, and writing good and proper html and css clearly requires less time.
    g
     
    kk5st, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  7. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #47
    ... unless you download a pre-designed free template from startbootstrap.com, pretend like I built it myself and that the code contained in it is proper and clean. I could do that in a minute or two, and it takes longer than that for me to write a properly-coded page from scratch. But then we are comparing apple and orange. ;)
     
    Gary-SC, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  8. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #48
    Then you can call your outfit, "Asshat Web Design". Even that would not save you any significant time, as you're still waiting for content. The markup on that is down in the weeds. You're still typing or pasting text into your template and removing the dummy text, etc.. That takes a lot of time its ownself. I've actually seen sites which use the same content, except for a few particulars. Lawyers and Dentists seem to be prime targets for this particular method of thievery. Imagine how those sites are cranked out.
     
    kk5st, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  9. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #49
    EXACTLY! Even if I downloaded a pre-designed template from startbootstrap.com, I would still need to replace all those dummy contents and irrelevant images with the real ones, and most likely, I will still need to tweak a lot of existing lines of code to customize it even just a little bit. I can see there will be a whole bunch of overrides, edits, and more overrides of code if I tried to do more than that. And at that point, where is the "savings?" I find it so much easier and faster to have ideas and contents first and then write a page from scratch to get the exact page I want with just enough lines of code I need, without having to study Bootstrap's convoluted way of writing bloated code and write a bunch of overrides. Sure, it takes time and effort to learn HTML/CSS, but I don't think it's rocket science.

    Besides, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would pay for any pros only to come up with something out of copying and pasting and somehow thinks it's normal for a pro to "lack creativity and skills" to do the professional-grade job. If I hire a pro, I would expect him/her to know his/her craft. I would hire a pro because *I* lack creativity and skills and that *I* as a customer wouldn't have time to learn and do that level of work. I would be a bummer if I pay someone $2,000 only to discover that I could've done the same with just a 15-minute YouTube video explaining how to customize a Bootstrap template.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  10. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #50
    How did the conversation go with your employer? @Gary-SC
     
    NetStar, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  11. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #51
    @NetStar
    Thank you for asking. The conversation is still going, but it looks like my boss might end up paying me a bonus because, according to him, he realized he might have put me to the task that deserves more reward than he initially guessed. He also reassured me that he would let me continue my learning during my work hours because he thought I would end up becoming a perfect person to make informed decisions in the future when and if he wants to hire someone to build some web stuff for his other businesses. Since he trusts me as an employee doing other things, and he knows my work ethics, he likes the idea of me learning stuff for him as well as for myself.

    In the meanwhile, the "pro web guy" continues to abuse me verbally. I let my boss know about his behavior when he isn't looking. He hasn't made it official yet, but right now, it seems like he will end up letting him go as soon as the next week starts and he has a chance to confront him directly in person.
     
    Gary-SC, Jul 5, 2019 IP
  12. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #52
    So your boss didn't have confidence in your ability and consulted with an outside source who recommended Bootstrap for the guy who has only 30 days experience with web design. Then your boss tells you that you are a "newbie" and should listen to the more experienced developer. Then you return and say "no I won't use bootstrap I asked people on a forum" and now your boss is on board with taking the time for you to learn CSS in depth before starting a revenue generating project???? Good for you. Personally I think your boss is crazy if this truly panned out this way....
     
    NetStar, Jul 6, 2019 IP
  13. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #53
    Nope. It wasn't just about hiring someone to get a website up and running. My boss preferred to have someone in-house working on this stuff so he would be able to discern who to hire. He also knew I was interested in getting into the field, so he thought he could help me out this way. He HAD confidence in my ability to learn new things through my past track record in other things (that's why he gave me this opportunity in the first place), but he also thought a pro could help me learn this stuff more efficiently. I was already learning something new and different from "the majority viewpoint," which made more sense to me and also sat well with my work ethic. I determined that we could not trust the guy's "advice" based on the fact that he had the nerve to shove the whole "slap everything together and charge" highway robbery approach to web development up my @$$. Discerning that does not require ten years of experiences. It's partly a matter of work ethics. My boss heard me out, he also came to know another aspect of the situation (his behavior toward me) and agreed that we might be better off not asking this particular guy for help, especially since I have another coding mentor who seems more qualified than the guy my boss brought in.

    It's all based on facts and reasonings.

    Me being in the game for 30 days does not change the fact that some methodologies and approaches are more appropriate than others. Being a six-year-old child and telling you stealing candy from a store is wrong doesn't make the child's statement incorrect because of his/her age.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 6, 2019 IP
  14. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #54
    @Gary-SC

    What's up? Let us know if you need help .........
     
    pxgfx, Jul 11, 2019 IP
  15. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #55
    Did you read the thread?
     
    sarahk, Jul 11, 2019 IP
  16. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #56
    I have ... and I have been following the thread. Is it not okay to check on him and offer help? I'm just curious to know if he's got something new for us since his last post on Sunday that we may be able to help him with. Did I do anything wrong?
     
    pxgfx, Jul 11, 2019 IP
  17. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #57
    It just seemed really weird when the entire thread was him explaining what was up and you bounce in as if nothing had been said.
     
    sarahk, Jul 12, 2019 IP
  18. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #58
    I know you're a mod and all ...

    Sure, maybe weird but not "really" weird ...
     
    pxgfx, Jul 12, 2019 IP
  19. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #59
    He was fired for not being adaptable.
     
    NetStar, Jul 12, 2019 IP
  20. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #60
    More like too busy to post here, since he's cleaning up the train wreck of incompetence and ignorance the so-called "professional" tried to scam them with. Particularly when it sounds like his boss might actually be willing to listen to reason, instead of doublespeak marketing talk, propaganda, and outright bunko every framework peddler seems to thrive upon.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 12, 2019 IP