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A pro says my HTML/CSS approach sucks. What should I do?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by Gary-SC, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #21
    You're not understanding any of this deathshadow. I'll try to make it clearer.

    The original poster has 30 days experience in HTML and CSS. His employer's consultant recommended Bootstrap to cut down on time and costs to get a product from development to production as quickly as possible.

    Your suggestion is to blow up at his employer and tell them the consultant is garbage and bootstrap is crap and give him a million reasons why writing the CSS yourself is cleaner and smarter when the end product makes very little difference to the customer. Then advocate to allow for the time and budget for a newbie developer to become as proficient as you are when it took you years of great time and experience to develop your level of mastery (so hard for me to say this btw without falling out of my chair laughing fyi.).
    SEMrush
    My suggestion is to suck it up and use bootstrap because it's what is expected of the employer and consultant. And at the end of the day it will produce the same product with the same margin of profit except will be easier and quicker and meet all expectations.

    To the original poster: If you push back. You aren't the right person for the job.
    I can agree with all of deathshadows points. But it makes no difference on the business end. I work for a company that uses Bootstrap (poorly btw and loads it two times in two frames lol). We have over 6,000 companies paying an average of $2,899/mo. If you do the math that's over 200m annually. Guess what? Though it's bloated sloppy and a mess and deathshadow can find 1,000 things wrong with the code in the end it doesn't matter. The company wants a quick turnaround and money. Btw never once did we have a problem with a client complaining that we used bootstrap. Not once. It didn't matter. It doesn't matter. If we left it up to the developers with code pride we would have 0 profit and still be writing our code base.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #22
    In other words go ahead and f*** themselves for expediency. Great advice there. I can only assume your clients or their visitors don't know enough to complain, or can't be bothered to complain and end up going to some site that actually works for them.

    The latter of which is a massive problem. What's the bounce like?

    But sure, let the sleazy dirtbags prey on ignorance and hope they don't get pimp-slapped back. As a prosecutor I know here in the US likes to say "See you in court".

    Since I've never seen a bootcrap site that meets WCAG minimums when the halfwits using it can't even keep EM, REM, or PX straight, which is why MOST bootcrap sites are broken for me as a user. (since the PX media queries screw over the REM fonts and other sizes).

    It's not that people don't complain about it being bootstrap. It's that they don't know what's causing their problems to complain ABOUT. Doesn't mean they're not having problems... and with the Internet it's the easiest thing for users to go "screw this" and go to a competitors site instead. They are FAR more likely to do that than try to wade through a shit website to find the contact info. Hell, if it's particularly bad most users these days don't even wait for the page to finish loading before hitting "back" or closing the tab.

    Though I find it highly unlikely your "clients" aren't complaining, it is more likely they don't know how to articulate their complaints much less know what to complain about.

    Of course, what's your turnover? These little fly-by-night cookie cutter scammers 'have' tons of clients, but they have to bring them on as fast as they lose them in most cases. That's the joy of a true and proper scam, as PT Barnum correctly noted. There's a 'client' born every minute.

    But really this:
    If that is true, there is something horrifyingly wrong with your entire development cycle; since these techniques and not using frameworks results in the need to write as much code, results in simpler code, and means there's only two things to learn (HTML and CSS) instead of tacking on top dozens of different extras you don't need and just TAKE LONGER!

    Which again guts the argument you're trying to make. The garbage you are making EXCUSES for does the OPPOSITE of your claims, including the BS about "Still writing our code base" because it takes LESS time to build, LESS work to build, LESS effort to maintain by NOT using the dipshit re-re mentally enfeebled "framework" idiocy! Instead of wasting time using or learning some dumbass framework, just write the bloody thing in the underlying language following structural rules, and using separation of presentation from content!

    Your defense of it makes NO SENSE because you are not saving one bit of time using this crap! NOR is your company. You're making it take longer, making it harder to do, harder to maintain, harder for new people to come up to speed with since it's a mess of conflicting properties, and the end result is inferior. More work taking more time for an inferior result? Oh yeah, great "business sense" there.

    Of course once you've built your entire business process around the bloated slow hard to deal with scam, it's harder to change course. This is why getting people just getting into doing this, and new site owners or those looking for something new up to speed as fast as possible is important. So they can avoid the BS that is going to take longer with a crappy result, so as not to paint themselves into the corner where they get to wear the dunce hat. If the company you work for built themselves around this scam, fixing it would be very expensive indeed. Again, much like a disease where if you went to the hospital the first week, you'd have been fine.... now they're stuck paying for life support but the confirmation bias of having "a result" won't let them admit it.

    If they want "quick turnaround and money" why are they letting themselves be SUCKERED by processes that take MORE time and effort?!? That's the part I don't understand. Again, HOW are these garbage systems accomplishing this? Nobody seems to actually have an answer for that!

    Though you ARE correct, you can make a good deal of money scamming know-nothings. See Gwyneth Paltrow or the douchebag calling himself an avocado. Doesn't mean it's legit, or that you won't end up in legal trouble sooner than later.

    -- edit -- and I think that's where a lot of my "outrage" comes from. I specialize in helping clients who are in COURT because of the issues I outline. BECAUSE one of these know-nothing scammers with the LIE that bootcrap or some other framework / pre-processor / tool was "easier" went and derped it into a business where it DOES matter. Like banking, medical, public utilities, government organizations, etc, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  3. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #23
    Our clients are paying customers who use a web based control panel to manage their day to day sales operations. Your customer does NOT care or know anything about the technology stack that you use. They don't give a crap if you use bootstrap or write the code yourself. They don't care if your server is Unix or Windows. They don't care if your application is PHP or Node.js. They don't care if you use a MVC Framework or your own internal solution. They don't care about any of that. Only you do and other internet geeks. It will NOT cost you a sale by using bootstrap. It's ridiculous to think that the type of wrench you use to unscrew a bolt in an engine will be the concern of a customer waiting to get their car back on the road. Silly you are.

    More non-sense. Bootstrap isn't illegal nor does it promote an illegal practice. You aren't going to court for using a CSS library to design a web site. Silly you are once again.

    Irrelevant. Customers don't care. Never once (other than you and other nerds..MAYBE) will a customer view the source of a web page and say "I'm not buying from these guys... they are using bootstrap and didn't bother to write their own CSS library). Silly.

    Or they aren't having a single problem with their viewing experience. Just because you know that there are unused CSS code polluting DOM doesn't mean it's actually affecting the viewers experience.

    Our customers complain about things that aren't related to the libraries we choose to use. They complain about lack of functionality or wishing the functionality of certain features were different. They complain about those things not the technology stack we use.

    Perhaps our business is different from what you are assuming. We offer a web service for auto dealerships to manage their sales operations from equity mining deals to managing inventory to accounting etc. Our sales are not adding an item to a shopping cart. They will request a demo then the sale and contract is done directly. Our web site actually uses bootstrap too. It doesn't cost us any sales. Again the customer doesn't care.

    I mean... we are quite profitable. Our competitors even use bootstrap for their web based systems. Bootstrap doesn't make the service. It's just a tool to get the web based control panel created. I don't advocate for bootstrap. I'm just saying it doesn't matter and won't keep you from making sales. In our case and our competitors case it doesn't mean squat.

    Take the time to read the responses you receive and stop getting stressed out (this is hard for you). In the original posters case it saves a LOT of time because he just started to learn HTML/CSS a month ago. Yet you expect him to be on your level of mastery (again almost falling off my chair with laughter) which took you years to achieve. Whats your expectation for him to achieve this? The weekend? 1 month? A year? Bootstrap will help this poor lad out.

    You aren't scamming by using bootstrap. That's so irrelevant and silly. You are using a library to build a web site. It's only scamming if you are creating a web site for someone who specifically says "no bootstrap" then you product a site by using bootstrap then tell them "we didn't use it!". Your customers don't care nor would they feel cheated if you used bootstrap. In fact, your customers have no idea what bootstrap is and if you tried to explain it to them they would reply "I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.. can we get back to the price of this thing so I can make money?".

    You are a great example of why developers can't manage themselves. You would drive a company under with your nonsense and garbage.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  4. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #24
    I've read, and re-read... and when it comes to this nonsense:
    HOW?!? For the love of Christmas HOW is learning to do things wrong, forcing him to learn to write MORE code than he needs to, avoiding the most basic of concepts, and tacking SOMETHING EXTRA HE HAS TO LEARN ON TOP OF HTML AND CSS, making him save ONE DAMNED BIT OF TIME?!?

    HOW?!?!?! That's the part that's pissing me off so damned much. What the bloody blue blazes makes this asshat nonsense easier to learn, easier to master, easier to start with? It's just more crap. That the result is wrong, bloated, AND flips the bird at usability and accessibility is just the icing on the cake. IT IS NO SIMPLER OR TAKE ANY LESS TIME TO LEARN THAN JUST USING HTML/CSS PROPLERLY!!!

    That's what's pissing me off, what the bloody blue hell part of that question are you failing to comprehend? ... and again like those making up these LAME EXCUSES and wild unfounded claims over how much "time it saves" you don't even come close to providing a coherent answer!

    I don't expect mastery, but it should not take longer to learn HTML/CSS than it does to learn HTML + CSS + bootstrap -- which is basically what we're talking about here. MORE SO now that flex is real-world deployable and the horrifically named "CSS3 Grid Layout Module" is one boot in the patoot to IE away from same.

    There are a few details I'd expect to take longer -- like when to float, when to inline-block, when to flex, and when to grid -- but that's no different than learning when to shit certain classes into the markup for the framework.

    CSS is no harder than bootstrap. To do anything unique with bootstrap you still need to add your own CSS, which is HARDER to do atop bootstrap's rules which is why codebases end up littered with so much !important it's like Syndrome's evil plan. "When everything is !important, nothing is."

    In no fathomable way, shape, or form does bootstrap make this stuff easier to learn, easier to work with, faster to develop, or any of the other wild claims made about it. The only way you could perceive any of those claims to be true is to have never learned HTML right in the first damned place (aka head stuck up 1997's arse), or to have drunk so deeply of the flavor-aid you can't even see the lies for what they are!

    Bootstrap itself is a scam, so of course using it is. It's a LIE about being easier when it isn't. Faster to develop for when it isn't. Easing collaboration which it does not... and every other alleged CLAIM about what it provides. It is a LIE rooted in LIES.

    Because if all those claims about how great it is are false, not one of your points has merit.

    See the thread I just started. EXPLAIN IT TO ME. HOW is a single claim of yours about it being easier, simpler, yada, yada ACTUALLY TRUE? Can't actually do it, can you? Even though I asked multiple times in this thread. Multiple times over the past decade EVERY time a thread like this comes up. No, now you have to make it about how what I'm saying would "drive companies under".

    When I'm usually the one called in to clean up these shitstorms WHEN a company is in danger of going under from this delusional lunacy!

    Then people wonder why the majority of web startups fail inside their first year.

    But again, EVERY time I press this point -- SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS -- people either stop responding, attack me claiming I don't know what I'm talking about, attack me claiming what I'm saying would "bankrupt businesses", or simply go "we'll have to agree to disagree".

    Burden of proof is in your court. DO IT! Give me a straight huffing answer!
    HOW are any of these claims about it actually true?

    They aren't, which guts every single point you've tried to make.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  5. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #25
    @deathshadow , so THIS is what you've been telling me about the industry? The whole "nobody cares how it's built, just push it out and be done with the damn thing?"

    @NetStar , do you think the same way about the restaurant business? I can't help thinking it is a fast-food takeout approach to web development.
    • Customers do NOT care how you cook their meals and what you put in it. Only some picky nerdy chefs care about that.
    • There is no time to learn how to obtain quality ingredients and how to cook something properly when customers are hungry.
    • Your craftsmanship and care are irrelevant in business. Meals just need to get out. People need to eat.
    But, add this to the list, and I can't help thinking it's "fraud":
    • Make sure you charge the michelin star restaurant price since I make it look just as good as the meals coming out of them and people won't know the difference. The key is to get the most perceived value with the least amount of work to maximize the profit margin.
    I don't think I want this kind of thinking to be my normal way of working on this stuff. I don't think my boss asked me to learn this stuff just to get out of it as fast as I could. I'll ask him, though.
     
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  6. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #26
    The more you learn about this industry, the dirtier it feels. The scummier. The word "fraud" most certainly seems appropriate! It's something I've been trying to fight my entire career since unlike most of these "peddle it any old way" two-bit hucksters, I actually try to follow the Engineering code of ethics. Ethics being a fancy word for "actually caring about my clients and not trying to rip them off for every last penny without even being qualified to do the job".

    Any person with even a shred of decency and morality should be HORRIFIED by what those who defend these practices say. Much like society today at large where a greater sociopathy is at work. We are manufacturing sociopaths, which is how things like tossing children in cages can be justified as "well they're not our kids". It's that same mentality. In some ways it's a direct response to capitalism. It's the only ISM that actually actively encourages sociopathic behavior, and in which psychopaths thrive.

    Saw that first hand when I worked for a national insurance agency, where the higher ups would actually BRAG about denying cancer coverage to a 80 year old woman after she spent her life paying into it. It is THAT LEVEL of dirtbaggery, just on a less important less critical topic.

    ... and me, well I'm a bit like Geralt on that one. "Evil is Evil: Lesser; greater; middling; makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary, the definitions blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another? I’d rather not choose at all."

    .. and it's why the people who say things like "it doesn't matter" and "just go with it to get it done" are to me, immoral, dishonest, and utterly lacking in empathy much less care. If they have success at all, it's from somehow magically failing upwards, or trampling on anyone who gets in their way. You can see it in their attitude that no matter how politely they word it, amounts to NOTHING MORE than "f*** the blind, f*** the disabled, f*** the user, f*** the client, at least I'm getting paid."

    Then they wonder like people who are actually capable of giving a damn about other people get upset. All because they're incapable of that type of emotion in regards to strangers or even acquaintances.

    Just sit around and listen to these so-called "professionals" when they have a bull session and their opinion of the clients. Eye opening. You know that shit the "professional" said about you to your face? I bet at home he does the same thing about your boss.... though at least with you he has the stones to say it to your face, that's actually a rarity.

    It's a joke I often make... which had worse stress77? Flying air combat in Gulf 1, or web development... gee, let me think about that.

    You're marks to him. Nothing more, nothing less. I've seen it more times than I care to count. These people are ethically and morally bankrupt, and it shows in everything they do and everything they say. And the ONLY reason they get away with it is that the majority of those out there don't know any better, and a good chunk of the rest are just as deficient in common decency.

    BUT, don't let that get to you. You CAN learn to do it decently, honestly, morally. Doing so lets you fight back against these dirtbags so people like your boss don't get screwed by "just another conman". Those of us who "put in the work" become a far more valued commodity than these jokers who cookie-cutter out the same bootcrap templates with a few colour changes and blindly hope nobody notices.

    It's the difference between these clowns who charge $15 for a template and $20/hour to integrate it, and having representatives of major corporations banging down your door -- even though you took down your web presence and "stopped taking new clients" -- offering a years income for three to four weeks work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  7. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #27
    Oh, BTW:

    Not nonsense. If the site violates WCAG or other accessibility norms, ending up hard to use on a screen reader, braille reader, or other non screen-media devices, you CAN end up in court and with fines for the very reasons I listed.

    Things that the broken gibberish if outright nonexistent document structure can result in. Things that using JavaScript with no fallbacks can result in. Things that illegible thin-glyph font-stacks and illegible colour contrasts (like those bootcrap comes with out of the box) can result in.

    In addition, many countries and industries have their own rules layered atop this. From the "Canada Standard", to the UK's EQA, to the US Americans with Disabilities Act (even if the orange cheeto-fingered commander in half-tweet's puppets in Congress are trying to gut its rules and authority)

    A Portuguese bank was being fined 300k (USD equivalent) a DAY for non-compliance. Unique case, I've never heard of a fine that high before, usually it's closer to $3 or $4k a day.

    Or the hubub in France just a couple years ago:
    https://thefinancialbrand.com/63859/ada-website-compliance-banks-credit-unions/

    Failing to at LEAST give lip-service to WCAG 2.0 can result in your being utterly screwed in these industries, and it's none too healthy for your company outside these industries either. Hell the reason I've got people trying to entice me out of retirement even though I shake like a chihuahua now, is that the 2019 conversion under the US ADA from WCAG 2.0 to 2.1 has everyone in a panic over the next round of pissed off users and prosecutors eager to make a name for themselves.

    Remember what Matt Cutts said about search? "Write for the user, not the engine." Writing for the user means ALL users, which is why logical document structure and proper semantics is important. Bootstrap developers -- and even their own examples -- fail to do this, as such they are most always in violation. You go and use that trash in the wrong industry, you are facing the possibility of federal prosecution, fines, civil lawsuits, and a whole host of other nasties.

    That's not nonsense, that's FACT. Pretending these things don't matter? That's nonsense. Short-sighted, ignorant, self-harming nonsense.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  8. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #28
    You were very triggered and felt the need to send me a private message. Here is a very direct answer to your very direct question.

    • Bootstrap is the right choice for the original poster because his employer reached out to a consultant that advised this.
    • Bootstrap is the right choice for the original poster because he only has 30 days experience with HTML/CSS. He isn't at the level to write cross browser compatible CSS code to your CSS standard of mastery.
    • Bootstrap is the right choice for the original poster because it has been tested by thousands and developed by dozens to be cross browser compatible and mobile friendly. It's not perfect but it will be far more usable than a newbies CSS code.
    • Bootstrap will allow for rapid development because there are baked in components that can easily be used with a quick look up of example code.
    • Bootstrap will allow for other developers to take over and add to the project because it doesn't require a novice to review a newbies's CSS code to determine what is going on. It's well documented and familiar by thousands.
    • Bootstrap makes designing a layout easy because all of the components, margins, padding, style and material design is already done for you allowing you to focus on content.
    • Bootstrap has been recommended by his employer and consultant. (Must strongly emphasize this)
    • Bootstrap isn't a library that your customers care about. Nor will it affect them or alter their perception of the quality of your product. Only internet geeks on message boards care. Your customers don't care about the technology stack that Amazon uses when shopping for their panties.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  9. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #29
    That's entirely different. Customers who dine at your restaurant DO care about how you cook their food in terms of quality foods and sanitation. They do NOT care that the chef uses a drainer instead of taking 20 minutes using a fork to drain pasta out of a pan. They also would never expect or care if the Chef designed his own pots and pans. You are attempting to compare apples to oranges. The quality and craftsmanship of your web product comes down to consumer experience and NOT the scripts and libraries used to produce the product.

    The fact that you are 30 days in to web design and pushing back on your bosses and consultants recommendation shows your lack of business sense. The reality is you aren't the right person for the job. They are showing you a way to accomplish your work. You aren't yet at the level to advise otherwise. Do so and I'm sure your work flow will be redirected. Ie. You will not be taking on this project.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  10. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #30
    Those aren't answers to the actual question, of HOW are the claims of it being easier, or simpler, or better true. They aren't even answers to any actual question, they're propaganda. Unlike most people, I know the difference.

    ... and if all the other lemmings run off a cliff? Non-answer to the question of WHY is it easier/better. This qualifies partially under the propaganda techniques of bandwagon and testimonial.

    So what's he supposed to do, waste as much time learning bootcrap as it would take to finish learning CSS? False equivalency, in propaganda this goes under "card stacking".

    Blind assumption, accepting lies at face value, and of course this is PAINFULLY apparent as being yet another example of bandwagon. In fact, it's the stereotype.

    As opposed to HTML and CSS where there's not tons of examples online that could be treated as copypasta. Of course for someone just learning derping along blindly copying things without taking the time to understand them, so they spend weeks trolling forums asking for help on garbage code nobody understands instead of learning the basic underlying skills needed to fix it quickly and easily.

    *NOTE* this is the only answer that comes CLOSE to addressing my actual question. Still, card stacked false equivalency. With a hint of "transfer".

    By making more code, more complex and convoluted HTML, that is as much to sift through if not HARDER to sift through than vanilla HTML/CSS. This is one of the "big claims" about it that seems to be 100% fabrication, having ZERO semblence of reality to it unless you're comparing to 1990's methodologies. Which makes sense, since bootstrap recreates broken '90's methodologies 'out of box'

    Because focusing on the content is what slopping 5 classes on every element without anything RESEMBLING proper semantics does. Again, a claim unsupported by the FACTS.

    Who is focusing more on the content? The person who writes this non-semantic gibberish:

    
        <div class="d-flex flex-column flex-md-row align-items-center p-3 px-md-4 mb-3 bg-white border-bottom box-shadow">
          <h5 class="my-0 mr-md-auto font-weight-normal">Company name</h5>
          <nav class="my-2 my-md-0 mr-md-3">
            <a class="p-2 text-dark" href="#">Features</a>
            <a class="p-2 text-dark" href="#">Enterprise</a>
            <a class="p-2 text-dark" href="#">Support</a>
            <a class="p-2 text-dark" href="#">Pricing</a>
          </nav>
          <a class="btn btn-outline-primary" href="#">Sign up</a>
        </div>
    
        <div class="pricing-header px-3 py-3 pt-md-5 pb-md-4 mx-auto text-center">
          <h1 class="display-4">Pricing</h1>
          <p class="lead">Quickly build an effective pricing table for your potential customers with this Bootstrap example. It's built with default Bootstrap components and utilities with little customization.</p>
        </div>
    
        <div class="container">
          <div class="card-deck mb-3 text-center">
            <div class="card mb-4 box-shadow">
              <div class="card-header">
                <h4 class="my-0 font-weight-normal">Free</h4>
              </div>
              <div class="card-body">
                <h1 class="card-title pricing-card-title">$0 <small class="text-muted">/ mo</small></h1>
                <ul class="list-unstyled mt-3 mb-4">
                  <li>10 users included</li>
                  <li>2 GB of storage</li>
                  <li>Email support</li>
                  <li>Help center access</li>
                </ul>
                <button type="button" class="btn btn-lg btn-block btn-outline-primary">Sign up for free</button>
              </div>
            </div>
    
    Code (markup):
    or the person writing this?

    
    <div id="top">
    	<h1>Company name</h1>
    	<ul id="mainMenu">
    		<li><a href="#">Features</a></li>
    		<li><a href="#">Enterprise</a></li>
    		<li><a href="#">Support</a></li>
    		<li><a href="#">Pricing</a></li>
    		<li class="alternate signup"><a href="#">Sign up</a></li>
    	</ul>
    <!-- #top --></div>
    
    <div id="pricing">
    	<h2>Pricing</h2>
    	<p>
    		Quickly build an effective pricing table for your potential customers with this Bootstrap example. It's built with default Bootstrap components and utilities with little customization.
    	</p>
    	<div>
    		<h3>Free</h3>
    		<ul>
    			<li><strong>$0 <span>/ mo</span></li>
    			<li>10 users included</li>
    			<li>2 GB of storage</li>
    			<li>Email support</li>
    			<li>Help center access</li>
    		</ul>
    		<a href="#">Sign up for free</a>
    	</div>
    
    Code (markup):
    That is why said claim is BS. Again, you make a claim, but it's unsupported. I'm asking for things that actually SUPPORT these claims.

    So again, glittering generality, possibly with cards stacking and certainly with a good degree of "name calling". (propaganda name calling is not the crass style I've used in this thread. It's subtle, so subtle most people don't even see it. Even the word "easier" or "new" can fall under it)

    Which again has dick-all to do with my question.

    Again dodging my actual question.

    WHY? HOW.

    WHAT THE F*** MAKES IT ANY OF THESE THINGS YOU CLAIM IN TERMS OF EASE OF USE, SPEED OF DEVELOPMENT, COLLABORATION, ETC, ETC, ACTUALLY BE TRUE?

    ANSWER THE F***ING QUESTION!.

    Again, seems that you can't. You'll do anything to dodge it... and if these claims of it being "easier", or "simpler", or "makes it faster to develop", or "makes collaboration easier", or "makes it easier for others to come in to help with or take over managing" are in fact false -- which everything I know tells me they are LIES -- not one of your counterpoints remains valid.

    Other than "suck it up, let the snake oil doctor scam your boss". Aka your "real answer" to this thread and non-answer to MY question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  11. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #31
    I did answer that question. Not sure how I can rephrase my answers. You can find my answers in my replies.

    @deathshadow you can have an opinion that differs than mine. You do not have to force yours on others and become triggered when people don't have the same view as yours.
    @Gary-SC you came for advice you will receive opinions that differ than yours. I feel your boss and the consultant is correct.

    For clarifications, non of my web sites use booststrap. I never needed it. But I understand it's purpose and the company I work for uses it. We don't receive complaints from customers on our use of a CSS framework. Most of our customers do not know what CSS is or the basics of creating a web site. Honestly no customers are landing on your site then viewing the source to see if they should continue. The technology stack you choose and the libraries you use does not matter one bit to your customer.

    A Web Designer who is 30 days in to his trade and still learning shouldn't be telling his boss and his consultant that he knows best. Bootstrap may not be the best solution for an Expert creating a web site but in the end it really does not matter. I think your boss wants you to focus on using the components of Bootstrap to get your project to production as quickly as possible. He doesn't want your focus to be on designing components that already exist. Speed in business matter. deathshadow may not agree with this but he does not receive a pay check from your company (or any for that matter haha).

    deathshadow is a keyboard warrior. He gets triggered easily. He can give you some pretty damn good advice on troubleshooting errors in code however when it comes to business sense he isn't successful. His advice will get you fired. Mine will probably get your work done in the easiest way and make you look like a rock star. Use bootstrap. It's what your employer wants.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  12. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #32
    And I contend that they also DO care about whether they are getting the money's worth. Besides, the lack of complaints could mean the absence of discernment, which doesn't excuse the lack of care on the chef's part. I'm sure some scammy chefs would be perfectly fine with taking advantage of ignorance and blindness, but I sure wouldn't want to do that to people if I already know what's right.

    That's not what I have seen, though, even as a general user. I've come across a bunch of sites, for example, that are dog-slow and unresponsive. Having come to know some basics, I've been looking at various websites' code. I'm discovering that many of them are using so-called Premium Themes, many of which contain Bootstrap and numerous JavaScript code, and they are most often a pile of thousands of lines of HTML code with numerous <div> tags nested deeper than I have never imagined doing it myself. I suspect that these things do matter.

    BTW, my boss does NOT tell me anything about whether I should use Bootstrap and use Pingendo to handle it. He has absolutely no clue about the subject. He brought the pro dev guy into our situation because he thought he might be able to help me learn, but he doesn't know how good he is. It's just someone he happened to know through some friend.

    In case you wondered, my boss decided to do this way (having me learn to do this instead of hiring a pro to do it for us) because he wasn't in a hurry, he knew I was always interested in web dev stuff, and he thought maybe he could do a favor for me by letting me work on this in-house as a part of my job to help me learn new things. He is a cool guy, and it is one of the reasons I've worked for him for several years now. Anyhow, the funny thing was that I thought of the kind of approach you advocate in the beginning. I spent the first few hours reading and trying some basics and thought, "There's got to be an easier way to do all these things." That's why I looked into Webflow and Wappler at first. I came across this forum at some point through some articles, so I began asking questions. I also tried Webflow quite a bit. It didn't take that long to realize that I would rather learn this stuff right than taking shortcuts. And not only that, I soon realized that writing HTML and CSS wasn't rocket science, and the way Webflow (and other similar tools for that matter) did things was convoluted, and it was actually slower to do things than writing code.

    And I don't think it's true that my boss doesn't care about code quality. In my private meeting with him, I explained to him what I learned up to this point about HTML basics and why it mattered. He *did* say it made sense to him and that he wanted to make sure whatever I might build in the future is put together well just like he expects a plumber to do the right thing behind the wall, as he put it. That's why I suspect that "no complaints made" doesn't necessarily mean people don't have any issues. It might be that they just don't know and they aren't holding the pros accountable because they don't even have the high-level view of what's right and what's wrong.

    Your commentaries focus mostly on two points:
    1. Nobody cares, so who cares about code quality. It's all business.
    2. You are a noob and don't have the right to talk back. Obey your boss and the pro guy.
    I'm tired of the "you are a noob" rhetoric. A six-year-old child might not know much about anything, but his/her lack of knowledge and experiences don't make him/her saying "stealing is wrong!" incorrect. I know what I learned and what I have not learned. That doesn't make what I already learned wrong even if I am just around a month into learning this stuff. And it's not like I spend only 20 minutes a day. My boss is letting me focus on this stuff during my work hours, so I've been putting anywhere from 4~6 hours of concentrated, uninterrupted learning hours, plus the past four weekends of full-day learning and practicing. Yes, I'm hooked to this stuff, and I contend I learned something after all these hours of focused learning and practicing time. So, I have at least some level of discernment on the subject now, and I am never going to accept something to be correct without asking questions and interrogating if that something doesn't seem to be a correct answer.

    I guess you and I are in two completely different businesses; You are in the fast-food industry where people expect to pay the least, and they don't see or expect quality and craftsmanship. I would rather be in the Michelin star business where many people will curse at them, "OVERPRICED!!!!" but more than a few would pay $$$ for quality dining experiences they deserve. I want to be able to be proud of what I do. Everyone is different.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP
    kk5st likes this.
  13. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #33
    That's kind of what I meant when I said people know something is wrong, but lack the knowledge to articulate it in a manner site owners will understand or take seriously. They will bitch in general about the software, or they'll say "Screw it" and look for a competitor who's site isn't causing problems... but even if they take the time to complain they don't know enough to say "Bootstrap did it!"

    When quite often, that's exactly the root of the problem. Sometimes not even through bootstrap itself in implementation, but in a mindset that has no focus on doing things cleanly, efficiently, or easily. That they then take these train wrecks of ineptitude and needlessly complex/convoluted ways of doing things 1990's pre-CSS style, and endlessly mindlessly chant the word "easy" as if saying it multiple times will magically make it true? Well, that's what's so insulting about those who defend it.

    They seem unable to present a rational fact based argument to support the claims of "easier", or "better", or "faster to develop", or any other of the bullet points that underpin every single other defense of it. If those core claims are not true, not one defense of it can stand.

    ...and the worst part is, the more you actually learn about HTML and CSS, the dumber and dumber bootstrap will look, and the more insulting those defending it will get rather than actually form a rational counterpoint. This is because at the core of it, "use bootstrap" is based in feelings and propagated not just through propaganda, but a community that DEMANDS "obedience".

    Again why I liken it to twelve step programs. The first two things a 12 stepper is taught is that they are powerless to help themselves, and you cannot possibly on your own gain help anywhere but from a higher power. You hear the same rhetoric from framework and CSS pre-processor fanboys, and you know what I call that? Slavery 101.

    ... and that's why I got so worked up over -- again -- asking "how" and "why" and getting nothing but static, misdirection, and vague non-answers. It's why I have zero tolerance for the blind parroting of these claims without a single shred of actual FACT to back them up.

    And trust me, it's only a matter of time before the "you're a nube" transforms into other such cop-outs as:

    "You're an old stick in the mud"

    "You're not keeping up with modern times"

    "What you're saying would bankrupt a real business"

    Because again, they CANNOT actually seem to defend the core claims of what bootstrap is allegedly supposed to provide. At BEST it's a cop-out to avoid answering the REAL question, at worst it's as insulting and impotent as "thoughts and prayers".

    ANYTHING to defend their precious status quo.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  14. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #34
    I never said to them I knew the best. I simply questioned the guy's credibility for suggesting saying stuff like I should use Pingendo to build a Bootstrap site so I could just slap something together and be done with it. It doesn't matter how noob I am, I know both from my experiences fiddling with Webflow and the comments by more experienced pros that it's not the way to do it right. And I have to side with @deathshadow on this one, I find it FASTER to write HTML/CSS in a code editor than dragging and dropping my way around Pingendo/Webflow/whatever. As @deathshadow puts it, I don't even get the supposed benefit of using them. I assert that, and I get this "You are a fu**** dumb noob, so shut up and obey what I say!" response. One must explain to me why if they want me to accept that. I'm NEVER going to accept something blindly "just because."
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  15. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #35
    @NetStar

    How odd that you think 30 days isn't enough time to become functionally competent at html+css. I related my intro to web commerce elsewhere. After wasting a day on DW, only to figure it a waste of bits, I learned enough html/css from scratch to build a working e-commerce site with catalog, shipping and receiving, inventory control, customer info and billing, et al AND deliver in two weeks. Granted I already had some experience with DBMSs, SQL and programming in general. Back then, there was no help from forums such as this. You read the specs and practiced their usage.

    Thirty days is plenty enough time to recognize BS when you see or smell it. That said, I'd suggest @Gary-SC pull in his horns and learn all he can even if he's learning crap. A broad skill set is always extra value. Maybe for the next project, your boss won't hire the Pro from Dover (I'm betting Jason gets the reference) and you can apply your then copious experience.

    g
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    kk5st, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  16. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #36
    If there is a way to automate your job even further, do it.

    The use of tools to create things in CSS or HTML and "shove a product out the door", is just going to be more common. It looks like your co-worker has learned some of those tools.

    Why not use Wordpress to make a site? It's free. Thousands of plugins to help usability. Get the right theme and it will load up fast like the world loves.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 3, 2019 IP
  17. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #37
    Ok, so I'm a noob, so I must be off the mark all the time, right? Well, it turned out that some credible developers out there who work full-time in the industry share the same view:

    https://hacks.mozilla.org/2016/04/you-might-not-need-a-css-framework/

    Oh, maybe she is dumb and ignorant as well. Wait, this guy:

    https://meiert.com/en/blog/no-css-preprocessors/

    HOLD ON A SEC. He doesn't use CSS preprocessors because he does NOT WANT TO HAVE TO LEARN extra stuff! He wants it to be EASIER and LESS EFFORT!! But hey, he is just another dude who happens to be a tech lead and write articles for well-known organizations. Doesn't matter, it's all business, right? After all, he didn't come up with the idea. He referred to this guy:

    https://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201603/why_i_dont_use_css_preprocessors/

    BTW, the same guy also rants about professionalism:

    https://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200704/lame_excuses_for_not_being_a_web_professional/

    I am in 1,000% agreement with this guy even though I would not call myself a web professional. It doesn't matter whether I am a fu***** noob. It's the philosophy I would rather stick to. I'm not going to convince my boss that slapping together stuff and calling it good is "good." Quite frankly, I would be insulted if I were him and someone did that to me. To me, their reasoning makes far more sense than the other reasonings. One must make sense and convince me if he/she claims to be an expert and he/she thinks I should value their approach.
     
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  18. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #38
    "back reading" just left the group ...
     
    pxgfx, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  19. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #39
    @Gary-SC so you have your answer. Industry professionals told you not to use it. So sit your boss down and his consultant and tell him "I understand I am a newbie. No I will not use bootstrap.". Glad you were able to find help here.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  20. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #40
    I did precisely that last week. I had a private meeting with my boss and laid out my case on why I would not want to trust the pro guy he brought in and why I would not want to "just suck it up and learn it from him" just because he has more time in the web dev field. In my mind, it's NOT about "who" said what. The right idea has to win no matter who asserts it.

    And yeah, I feel very fortunate that I came across this forum. It even led me to other resources as well. To me, reasonings must sit well with me before I "learn from it." I fear being ripped off and deceived.
     
    Gary-SC, Jul 3, 2019 IP