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A pro says my HTML/CSS approach sucks. What should I do?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by Gary-SC, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. #1
    I am having a drama at work, and I don't know how to deal with it.

    I began learning to code HTML/CSS about a month ago because my boss wanted me to become an in-house web guy. I learned a lot in this forum. Then, last week, my boss decided to bring in outside professional help for it.

    The guy LOVES Bootstrap and uses an app called Pingendo to build prototypes and tweak the code in Brackets. That's all he does as far as I could tell. He has been literally mocking me for saying many HTML5 "semantic tags" are redundant, working on authoring contents first, and writing HTML/CSS code from scratch. He tells me that nobody cares about the underlining code and he is too busy to code everything from scratch. He is trying to make me use Pingendo, master Bootstrap 4 and "end my misery."
    SEMrush
    I told my boss about the conflict, but his response was, "Dude, you are a noob, what makes you think you know better than that guy because you spent the last four weeks learning on your own? He is a professional web designer with years of real-world experiences. You better listen to him and learn from him, ok?"

    How would you deal with this situation if you were me?
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 23, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #2
    You basically have two choices, 1) do as your boss says since he is paying the bill, or 2) start looking for another job. I do NOT envy you in the least.

    Since you are still a noob with this you do not have much choice.

    And remember, even though you are still a noob, you are also a PRO simply because you are getting PAID to practice your PROFESSION!!! You may or may not have the experience of the 'pro' your boss is paying, but that does NOT mean that you are not a PRO yourself.

    Since your job is your bread and butter, you will probably need to go with the flow whether you like it or not. That does NOT mean that you roll over and play dead. What you need to do is show your boss that he is LOSING money with the 'pro' he brought in. That will be hard, and it may be weeks or months before the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, keep learning all you can like you have been. As you get better, opportunities will present themselves. When they do, BE READY with a SOLUTION.

    What I would do on my offtime is to build the SAME website using a text editor. With all of the turdcrap that bootcrap spits out, you should be able to have a lean mean copy of the website up and running in the same or less time. Then when your 'pro' keeps charging your boss more and more for chasing down bugs, you can present your boss with a bugfree, FAST, TINY website that is relatively maintenance free.

    At that point there would be two websites doing identically the same thing. Once they can be compared, it is easy to show which is faster, better, and CHEAPER in the long run. The reality is that your boss is ONLY interested in the BOTTOM LINE, so all you need to do is to show him the BENEFITS of firing the 'pro' and let the REAL PRO do the job.

    The best part of doing it that way is that you will have an education to 'sell' to your boss eventually increasing your income. Also, you will gain experience that you can take with you if/when you decide to move up in the world. Further, if your boss is too bull-headed, you will not be forced to keep working for him.
     
    mmerlinn, Jun 23, 2019 IP
  3. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #3
    Lots depend on what your regular day job is and if you want to stay in that field. In the good old days, I'd agree with @mmerlinn about creating your own copy but modern websites are so complex you could be working all night for weeks just to prove your point.

    An old boss of mine would laugh that whenever he gave any of us a job for an existing client we'd bitch about the approach taken by the original team. The outsider your boss brought in is no different. He could have nodded his head and said "you be you, dude" but he needed to flex his muscles and look like he's worth the fee he's charging.

    I don't know Pingendo so I've got no opinion on that, and I'm a developer rather than a designer, but there will be times where your client doesn't want to pay for "elegant code", they want a site up and running yesterday. Sometimes that means using WordPress and/or Bootstrap and/or jQuery. Being employable means fitting in with your boss wants, or winning contracts etc.

    Those frameworks can also plug the gaps. I have zero interest in being an authority on SQL injection or CSS browser hacks so I trust the libraries that have been built by people who are passionate about those things. By the same account when Wayne goes on about accessibility I listen to him too, because it's important. I used to test everything, take nothing at face value, recreate the wheel. I choose to spend my time differently these days.
     
    sarahk, Jun 23, 2019 IP
  4. Eurogetwork

    Eurogetwork Peon

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    #4
    You have the right to choose your own path, so please just ignore a guy, who claims is a master of everything, because if he behaves like this, he is probably an amateur. People with huge knowledge are always aware of how much knowledge there is still missing.

    Bootstrap has a lot of limitations and is indeed a very good responsive framework, but still you are the one who make the choice. Be strong and do not let others tell your skills do not matter, because it is not true!

    Man everything you do and you learn in order to develop your professional skills matter! It does matter a lot!
     
    Eurogetwork, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  5. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #5
    Horrible advice. If the OP does as you say and ignores the guy, the OP will probably lose his job.

    Further that guy is NOT an amateur. He gets PAID, so he is a PRO no matter how good or how bad he is.
     
    mmerlinn, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  6. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #6
    It's an interesting idea. Maybe I could create a page that looks similar but without all the unnecessary fancy tricks to keep the file size small.

    I also wonder about questioning whether they need fancy tricks (animated items, etc.) to begin with. I can't help thinking that nobody cares to pause and go, "WOW, that is SO KEWL!!!" I don't mind a little transition effect and something subtle like that, but I've grown tired of seeing one of those Bootstrappy animated objects.

    What gets me really angry about the situation is that the boss disregards me merely because I'm a noob. He leaves no room for reasoning and constructive discussions. Yes, I am a noob, and I don't know jack $h*t outside what I have learned so far. But my boss doesn't know jack $*it, period. How can he decide that I know nothing valid when he himself doesn't even know what I the noob know?? Being a noob doesn't necessarily make *everything* I know up to this point is wrong or less qualified than the guy doing the same thing for twenty years, if it's the right thing to do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  7. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #7
    It's a small business, and he needs me for other things. So, I don't know if this saga alone will get me fired. He might just tell me to back off and do something else for him if I keep arguing. It is still frustrating, though. I might bail myself out of the situation before my boss tells me to do so if it continues, because I can't have a good conscience in participating in building something I know is flawed in many ways, such as nested divs for nothing, redundant tags, heavy frameworks, etc.
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  8. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #8
    I appreciate you saying that.
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  9. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #9
    But what if I created a version that looks similar but without all the frills, and then argue for why my boss shouldn't need them?

    Pingendo Bootstrap Builder: https://pingendo.com/

    I guess it might be one of those decisions that each person must make for himself/herself. I can't stand the idea of living to fit in and put up with someone telling me to do the wrong thing. And @deathshadow 's argument against Bootstrap makes sense to me. Maybe I should find another work situation where they let me do what I believe to be the right thing.
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  10. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #10
    Yeah, I was able to google it but not inspired to do any more than that.

    You're still new in this process and you'll meet a lot of people with really different approaches. I don't know how much of your 40 hours/48 weeks work you will be spending on web development but I'd suggest changing job over this isn't the right thing to do. Sometimes you just have to suck it up.
     
    sarahk, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  11. eweber

    eweber Peon

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    #11
    In my opinion, you will need some html and css skill to fine tune things. But, as a noob you should just listen to the experienced one as well. Your boss told you one thing which you are applying and this other guys advises something else. I am assuming this is where you may be asking what would we do in this case. Learn it all. It is to your benefit. Also this industry is never ending changing which means never ending learning.
     
    eweber, Jun 24, 2019 IP
  12. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #12
    If we were nearby, I'd say "send him unto me" like a cut-rate Roman centurion.

    Jokes aside, if this ALLEGED professional is singing the praises of bootcrap and Pingendo, they're unqualified to do a single damned thing. They're an amateur pretending to be a pro.

    ... and you could probably prove that to your boss by taking the HALFWITTED GARBAGE he's done, and rewrite the same thing more accessibly and in a fraction the code, and then explain to the boss that it will cost a fraction to host, and be easier to maintain... and that this other guy with his dumbass frameworks is only qualified to lead but two things; and Jack left town.

    Mind you, you should probably learn it JUST so you can rip it to shreds even better. Be warned, the industry is chock-full of jackasses claiming to be "experts" but using "Frameworks" and "tools" to vomit up fat, bloated, impossible to maintain code that took two to three times longer to develop, tells users with accessibility needs to go f*** themselves, and overall overthink the simplest of problems either out of ignorance, or incompetence.

    Though you know my joke at the start? Why not. Send them to this thread. Let's see this "work". Have someone who's got decades of programming give a PROPER evaluation of this clown's ALLEGED "professionalism". If he's using Bootstrap and Pingendo he's not a "professional", he's at best a two-bit poseur preying upon the boss' ignorance with his own ignorance or incompetence. At worst an outright scam artist.

    Trust me, I've gotten a slew of these dirtbags fired the past ten years at places where things like accessibility matters. Companies in COURT over the accessibility issues such developer ignorance and incompetence creates. Banking, government, public utilities, medical. Where meeting WCAG minimums and/or local laws like the UK's EQA and US ADA are a legitimate concern... and 90%+ of the time the past decade it's ALWAYS been the fault of some know-nothing tool using frameworks who wouldn't know semantic markup from the hole in their arse.

    Don't be afraid to use a little harsh language either. If they're ACTUAL professionals they should be able to handle it, and even expect it. IF they only want soft-spoken "don't make waves" types then all they want it so sleaze things out in as unprofessional a manner as possible, whilst maintaining the ILLUSION of being professional. Behind the vast majority of those who start the "if you can't say anything nice" chants is typically a dirtbag trying to control the social narrative. That way then can keep peddling their bullshit to the "know nothing" consumer.

    ... and you can tell the dirtbag right away. When I hear " he is too busy to code everything from scratch" my brain auto-translates it into "I'd rather play farmville all day than do my job". Or at least that's their thought process, when they are in fact too stupid or too inexperienced to realize that all their ignorant 'tools' are just making things take LONGER to develop and resulting in MORE work. But they're 100% convinced it's saving them time.. again what it REALLY boils down to is "Eye dunz wunna lurnzies"
     
    deathshadow, Jun 29, 2019 IP
  13. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #13
    And this:

    Would you guys insist on that if you *know* that he is wrong objectively speaking and you can prove it? Is knowingly doing wrong things to my boss ever justified for the sake of "respecting the elders?" I understand that both approaches ultimately work, but why should I allow my boss waste his time by knowingly doing it more convoluted way?

    I should learn the right way, no matter what. That's what I believe at this point. But yeah, that sounds intriguing.

    I don't know whether I'm ready to go on full war with the guy at the expense of my job, which I need to pay bills right now. The chances are that even my gracious boss might not like the way I wrote about this guy here. That said, right now, it is looking like I might not even have to deal with the guy that way. I met with him privately last week and discussed some specifics on why I didn't agree with the guy. I used the example template I wrote in another thread and explained why I did the way I did and how it differed from many other templates. Of course, I know that sample layout is too elementary to boast about anything, but I still wanted to show him that I wasn't a "clueless" and I was learning as much as I could. He took it well and said he would consider what I told him about the situation. We will see.

    BTW, I had to discuss the matter with my boss also because he's been vomiting verbal abuse on me and bullying me for our disagreements when the boss isn't around. Honestly, he is just an a$$hole at the end of the day besides his love for Bootstrap and Pingendo. He's called me all kinds of names, most often calling me an idiot noob with a significant issue with authorities. I tried to reason with him, but for example, his answer to objecting presentational class names is "You don't f***ing know JavaScript and how devs use it to add and remove class names to change stuff on a page." "Nobody cares; what works works." His response to my insistence of DRY CSS was, "SCSS and BEM will eat you for breakfast and $h*t you for lunch." What a way to "help" someone. His comments don't even make sense. He doesn't even want to reason with me.

    Heck, I even downloaded Pingendo app and tried it briefly just to prove the point. What a convoluted, a$$-backward way of writing a webpage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 1, 2019 IP
  14. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #14
    Conditioning and need. Most people are conditioned to take abuse. From the pulpit, from the soapbox, from those older or more experienced, from those who've "made a name for themselves", from the highest office in the land. We are all taught to not say anything negative, to not "make waves", to sacrifice everything -- even basic human decency -- just to "get along with everyone".

    It's an aspect of "toxic positivity" -- a disease that is currently destroying modern society as a whole. It teaches people to take abuse from those with a smile and authority, and to ignore and even persecute those actually trying to make the world a better place. It is how demagogues of every flavor herd about the feeble minded masses, and how every last two bit snake oi peddler makes their fortune. Nothing more than the conditioning that starts on your first day of school and only gets reinforced harder by the time you enter the workforce.

    It's disgusting, and I have never had the stomach for it. Which is why I've been labelled everything from "agitator" to "a-hole", for DARING to question the status quo or the opinions of my "betters".

    ... and you can see the parallels in this to the religious whackjobs; that assumption of moral or intellectual superiority, when as point of fact none of their views actually holds water. It's why they grasp to ANY excuse to ignore what you're saying. "oh it's how you said it" being a classic, but you found another one that's used ALL the time:

    Because he cannot form a rational defense of his viewpoint. He can't actually explain or defend it, so rather than attack the message, he attacks the messenger. It's the number one frustrating thing about this argument. Sure, I call the work stupid, and question the knowledge and/or intelligence of the person creating these broken techniques; but I can explain WHY by ripping said work to shreds.

    But you take these bozo's and they'll go even more offensive -- often with polite language to claim the moral high ground -- whilst not ONCE ACTUALLY defending what they're doing. The how, the what, the why of it. They'll attack how the message was delivered, they'll attack the messenger, they'll get dismissive -- in your case you're a "f***in nube" whilst in my case I'm the "old stick in the mud who won't modernize". It's just another bunch of lame excuses used to cover up for impotence. Sure, they'll parrot the glittering generalities of how it's somehow "easier" or "simpler" or "makes me more productive", but they can't actually answer HOW.

    ... and the ONLY TWO TIMES anyone has taken the time to say how, the reason it was "easier" was they had never extracted their cranium from 1997's rectum. That's the kicker of it is these people are using the new HTML 5 tags with endless pointless presentational classes, to replicate what they did with endless pointless DIV and endless pointless presentational classes, to replicate the exact same site-building techniques of endless pointless nested tables and presentational tags circa 1997! The very thing HTML 4 Strict was trying to move us away from and the antithesis of semantic accessible markup! But sure, I'm the one stuck in the past.

    This one though:
    Made me laugh over how stupid it is. If classes are to be added or removed by JavaScript, they belong IN the JavaScript, not the huffing markup. I bet this "id ten T" still uses onevent attributes. Oh wait, he's a bootcrap fan, right? So he's under the delusion that mobile "hamburger" menus require JavaScript, a <button> tag, and three span to be created. Probably doesn't even know how to walk the DOM.

    In Soviet Russia, the DOM walks you...

    Until you get into fields like banking, medical, government, and public utilities where "nobody cares" lands you in COURT. Until you realize it not only costed more time to make, but takes even more time to maintain. Until you realize that because it's a bloated wreck when/if (more like if) you get real traffic it is going to cost more to host and alienates people on choked out connections.

    In that way, I've often thought I have a different definition of "works" from these jokers.

    Another classic. I've said it since the day I first saw LESS ... it does nothing I would ever need done in my CSS, and if you see actual benefits from it you likely have ten times the CSS needed to do the job.

    But that's par for the course with these dipshit frameworks, pre-processors, and other tools. At BEST they save you writing 20% less CSS... at the cost of doubling the markup size, making it harder to maintain, adding more to learn on top for no actual benefit in the result, and by saddling you with their hundred-k + libraries that by themselves are three times the size an entire normal web page should be!

    Yet again though, you can't argue facts with religious zealots; and honestly there are times that's EXACTLY what dealing with these people feels like. Their confirmation bias is so deeply ingrained, they're painfully unaware of their own gullibility. Hence why tools like Bootstrap and Pingendo are nothing more than the web development equivalent of "gluten free" labels on things like chicken, or bleach enema's to "cure autism".

    Gullible scared desperate ignorant people will clutch to any good sounding lie rather than face a harsh reality. It's why I often think the way these tunic-wearing camel-mannered mollycoddles react when confronted with facts lose their shit, they're actually afraid of being exposed for the frauds they truly are.

    ... and "fraud" truly is the correct word.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 1, 2019 IP
  15. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #15
    Actually... this will be an opposing opinion. Your boss and the outside guy is RIGHT.

    Reasons Bootstrap is better for business:
    • By using Bootstrap you will immediately have a cross browser accessible and mobile friendly web site that is ready for deployment with minimal testing.
    • Bootstrap provides a consistent work flow and structure that allows for anyone to take over the project with minimal learning curve.
    • Bootstrap will allow for consistent design components that will easily and seamlessly blend with your web site.
    • Bootstrap will speed up the time spent on creating such pages as you will not be writing (and learning) CSS from scratch.
    • Bootstrap is well documented making it very easy to pick up and immediately start using.

    Reasons why the outside rep is correct:
    • Customers and your traffic do NOT care how the web site is built. Only YOU do and some geeks on web development message boards.
    • Your time is valuable. There is no time for you to learn how to create a wheel to reinvent the wheel when time is important to get a finished product in front of customers with MONEY.
    • Your pride is irrelevant in business. Things need to get done. They need to get done now.
    People in this thread may be right about bloated code and maybe web page load times possibly being impacted but they are completely wrong about business needs.

    Imagine starting a company and your product is software based. You KNOW that with Bootstrap and PHP/Laravel you can have a final product to roll out to expectation in 1 month HOWEVER your programmers want to roll everything in house. They want to build the CSS code base and their own internal framework. They aren't interested in using well tested libraries and code. They want to write everything to their own spec. This is what usually happens:

    • Development time goes from 1 month to 1 year and your competitors eat up market share and your profit.
    • Development isn't done to spec and there are too MANY bugs and your code is too premature to roll out but you have no other choice.
    • Funds are drained paying salaries for web developers who are slowing down production because they are too good to use existing code.
    • Developers leave and new developers have a hard time figuring out someone elses undocumented framework or code base costing more time and money.
    Your boss and this outside guy isn't your enemy. They are guiding you in the right direction. Use Bootstrap and be done.

    By the way... I am not a fan of Bootstrap. But in this case it IS the right tool for the right job despite what people may have said above.
     
    NetStar, Jul 2, 2019 IP
    sarahk likes this.
  16. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #16
    BTW even if you still decide that bootstrap is crap, there will be other design frameworks fulfil the same criteria. Others finding this thread may decide, instead, to find one that is well documented, fully functioning and go with it.
     
    sarahk, Jul 2, 2019 IP
  17. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #17
    Sadly @NetStar, your "reasons" hold water like a sieve.

    First off any time someone says "minimal testing" -- RUN! Should tell you ALL you need to know about said "developer".

    Worse than that though is this constant claim of how "hard" cross browser support is, when Bootcrap has gone flex-box telling IE10/earlier to f*** off. If you can't support IE11/later with just a few lines of using flex normally, you have no business writing HTML/CSS with or without a framework. This isn't 2008 where we still have to BOHICA supporting IE6 for every site. Simple fact is that even bootcrap no longer simplifies cross-browser support since it has REMOVED legacy support from how it works!

    If by "consistent" you mean endless pointless classes slopped willy-nilly all over the place, endlessly layering style on single elements so even going through the document inspector it's nigh impossible to figure out what's setting what much less customize a damned thing, and introducing MORE to learn over just plain HTML/CSS. To claim "minimal learning curve" is 100% grade A BS, and reeks of the same type of card stacking and glittering generalities as claiming that this bloated half-assed mess is somehow magically "easier". Just another LIE!


    Not even sure what that means, again sounds like ANOTHER glittering generality. AT BEST it means that every bootcrap website looks the same, yeah ... great selling point there. (not)

    If you want to learn to do anything custom you STILL have to learn CSS... then you have to learn bootcrap... then you have to write two to ten times the markup needed to do the job, with as much if not MORE of your own CSS riddled with !important to override what bootcrap is trying to do... HOW DOES THAT "speed up time"?!? It's more to learn, takes LONGER to work with, and makes you have to write MORE CODE whilst starting out with three to ten times the code your entire page should take. Just another bullshit claim that can only be justified by not knowing enough about websites to flap your yap on the topic!

    I've never found it such, but that's because with the endless idiotic classes slopped all over the place you end up with conflicting rules, the result being things NOT behaving how the documentation says because f*** knows which class is being obeyed. It just means that for even the simplest of tasks your diving for the document inspector to see which ones are and are not being applied, a tool that you should NEVER need when working with your own code!

    It LOOKS easy to pick up, but it's a house of cards propagated through lies wrapped in propaganda. The end result is "false simplicity" -- looking easier whilst making the actual task harder.

    ... and in this industry right now, false simplicity and confirmation bias are an infectious preventable disease; but the apologists run around with their false claims and empty promises like a bunch of anti-vax halfwits.

    Until it's slow loading. Until it's broken scripting off/blocked because you went full Gungan and used JavaScript for the mobile menus (which isn't even JS' job!). Until it's inaccessible due to broken techniques and methodologies. Until the server is choked out by having to waste ten times the bandwidth it needs to. Until the utter lack of semantics or back-assward inept ignorance of semantics tells large swaths of users (such as those with accessibility needs or in locked-down workplaces) to sod off. Until your half-assed non-semantic train wreck code impacts search so users don't even know you EXIST!

    Which is why bootcrap is such an outright tissue of LIES. Because that statement is itself a LIE because it takes MORE TIME to develop a page with bootcrap, more time to learn it on top of CSS, because you have to vomit up MORE CODE!

    HOW THE F*** is this train wreck of ignorance and ineptitude going to make it ANY faster to make a page?!? That's what I really don't get as this claim in favor of it is a BALD FACED LIE!!! I don't grasp how people can LIE like this; if it's not an intentional lie than you've simply drunk too bloody deep of the Jonestown flavor-aid.

    At BEST to make that claim you have to not know enough HTML (I'm not even talking CSS) to even use bootstrap, much less anything else. This would stand to reasons since it's painfully apparent the people who created bootstrap and coded ALL of its examples don't know enough HTML to be building websites either. For people who know nothing about websites, BY people who know nothing about websites is NOT a great battle plan.

    As evidenced by such 100% grade A derpitude as:

    
        <header>
          <div class="collapse bg-dark" id="navbarHeader">
            <div class="container">
              <div class="row">
                <div class="col-sm-8 col-md-7 py-4">
                  <h4 class="text-white">About</h4>
                  <p class="text-muted">Add some information about the album below, the author, or any other background context. Make it a few sentences long so folks can pick up some informative tidbits. Then, link them off to some social networking sites or contact information.</p>
                </div>
                <div class="col-sm-4 offset-md-1 py-4">
                  <h4 class="text-white">Contact</h4>
                  <ul class="list-unstyled">
                    <li><a href="#" class="text-white">Follow on Twitter</a></li>
                    <li><a href="#" class="text-white">Like on Facebook</a></li>
                    <li><a href="#" class="text-white">Email me</a></li>
                  </ul>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div class="navbar navbar-dark bg-dark box-shadow">
            <div class="container d-flex justify-content-between">
              <a href="#" class="navbar-brand d-flex align-items-center">
                <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="mr-2"><path d="M23 19a2 2 0 0 1-2 2H3a2 2 0 0 1-2-2V8a2 2 0 0 1 2-2h4l2-3h6l2 3h4a2 2 0 0 1 2 2z"></path><circle cx="12" cy="13" r="4"></circle></svg>
                <strong>Album</strong>
              </a>
              <button class="navbar-toggler" type="button" data-toggle="collapse" data-target="#navbarHeader" aria-controls="navbarHeader" aria-expanded="false" aria-label="Toggle navigation">
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        </header>
    
    Code (markup):
    gibberish use of numbered headings, no structural base, static image in the markup, button hook for JavaScript doing HTML/CSS' job, endless pointless DIV and SPAN for nothing... Again, explain to me how in the F*** that was "easier to create" or "simpler to work with" or "made it better" than simply writing:

    
    <div id="top">
    	<h1><a href="/">Album</a></h1>
    	<input type="checkbox" id="toggle_mobileModal" class="toggle" hidden>
    	<label for="toggle_mobileModal"></label>
    	<div>
    		<div id="about">
    			<h2>About</h2>
    			<p>
    				Add some information about the album below, the author, or any other background context. Make it a few sentences long so folks can pick up some informative tidbits. Then, link them off to some social networking sites or contact information.
    			</p>
    		<!-- #about --></div>
    		<div id="Contact">
    			<h2>Contact</h2>
    			<ul>
    				<li><a href="#">Follow on Twitter</a></li>
    				<li><a href="#">Like on Facebook</a></li>
    				<li><a href="#">Email me</a></li>
    			</ul>
    		<!-- #contact --></div>
    	</div>
    <!-- #top --></div>
    
    Code (markup):
    ... and then just using the ~1k of CSS needed to implement it. Big tip, it's called 'flex-order', that way non-visual semantics can be retained instead of telling users with accessibility needs to sod off!. NOT that content should ever be written that way, but that's why I've been switching to full modals instead of dropdowns and flyouts.

    Again, explain to me how writing 1.85k of convoluted, broken, inaccessible markup that violates the separation of presentation from content to do 750 bytes JOB, so as to avoid writing 1k of CSS made anything "easier". or "better", or "simpler". ALL of the claims about bootcrap are bullshit. 100% grade A farm fresh manure. The only time I've seen more manure in one place that wasn't on the farm?

    [​IMG]

    I mean for Joe's sake, this line ALONE:

    
        <link href="album.css" rel="stylesheet">
    
    Code (markup):
    Should tell you all you need to know about the clowns who created bootcrap. Little tip: What's missing?

    Expediency over quality, and "who gives a shit" -- that's the attitude of the apologists. Don't make waves, just shut up and take it. Who cares if the result is a broken bloated mess that screws over everyone EXCEPT the person lining their pockets by taking advantage of others. Again, everything you need to know about these sleazy ALLEGED "shortcuts" (that actually result in MORE WORK) and the sleazier dirtbags peddling this snake oil whilst claiming to be "professional". If they are professionals at anything, it's self delusion and/or scamming others with nothing but lies and misconceptions.

    Again, BULLCOOKIES! Because -- at least in terms of front end -- we're talking one days work, not a months. If it takes more than 8 man-hours work it would be over design approval, not actual development/coding work. How is handing the back-end guys MORE MARKUP making their job any easier or development faster? How is writing more markup and anywhere from 80% to 200% of your own CSS as you'd have without the framework "faster"? This is the claim I hear all the damned time and it's again, a bald faced LIE! In no way, shape, or form is this statement even in the same ballpark as reality, much less the truth! HOW?!? HOW the blazes are these wrecks of bad practices and writing more code than needed reducing development time?

    Again, the only explanation is not knowing enough HTML to have any business writing CSS, much less be using a framework like bootcrap. Same as how with Laravel people don't seem to know enough PHP or SQL to be using a framework that runs atop them.

    As evidenced by some code last week I wasted time with for a client only to realize the dipshit before me with his laravel asshattery had manually created an offshoot of MD5 to send data client side that had ZERO damned business client-side in the first place, opening up a security hole big enough to sail the USS IOWA through. Hence my being able to exploit it to send e-mails to anyone I wanted through their contact management software. (goldmine)

    Almost as bad as their herpaderp ASP system with the 64k token slopped into every page.

    Huh? Which one are you going after, not using the dumbass frameworks that are NOT to spec and use bad practices, or writing code properly TO specification? Again, statement makes no sense as you have it 100% BACKWARDS.

    Existing code like following document structure, maintaining separation of presentation from content, and all the other techniques that speed up development a dozen times more than the "frameworks"? Again, if anything is slowing down production, it's these frameworks that create MORE work by resulting in more complex code, forcing you to write more code than is needed, and making it HARDER to maintain, debug, and diagnose. You just keep parroting the same bullshit claim all the other "framework" developers parrot, when there's not a lick of reality to be found in it.

    HOW!?! HOW does this rubbish do any of these nonsensical claims? It's delusional! I flat out do not see how you can make that claim!

    Unless you use logical document structure, minimalist markup, call things what they are not what they look like, resulting in having 48k or less of cSS for the entire site, 16k of markup for every 10k of plaintext for a normal content-driven page, don't waste time using JavaScript to do HTML and CSS' job, meaning that things aren't complex enough to confuse anyone who's bothered actually learning HTML and CSS. Things that should be done long before you're even ALLOWED to look at these dumbass frameworks.

    Because if you take what little time it takes to learn the basics of how to structure HTML properly, you see what a giant LIE these frameworks and their fanboys are peddling.

    Again, the glittering generality that is the opposite of the reality. They take more time, add more to learn, result in doing more work that is harder to maintain, harder for the next poor slob to work with, and in general piss on cross-browser compatibility and accessibility/usability. In other words, the exact OPPOSITE of every claim those promoting the use of front-end frameworks make. As I've said a few places it's like the lie peddled from the pulpit over how faith is about "peace, love, and enlightenment" when all that's actually sold by the collar wearing scammers is hatred, bigotry, and ignorance.

    But the ignorant masses yum it up like they were following Pam Anderson around with a waffle cone in hopes she really does c*** strawberry ice cream.

    -- edit -- Also, apology if I call so many things lies, but truth is the truth, and these false claims about these idiotic scam-artist BS "frameworks" needs to be called out for exactly what they are. I'm sick of going in to client after client and having to clean up the messes the bootcrap framework idiots have screwed over these poor sods with... where they shit together such garbage front ends that they client is either in court for accessibility failings, or wondering why their traffic numbers are in the toilet... and then went through multiple developers trying to "fix" things by applying chewing gum and bailing wire as a fix-all when what was needed is a root canal. All whilst flat our refusing to accept that the front-end frameworks were the problem.

    Which is the most infuriating part, as "so many successful places use it" becomes the bandwagon propaganda, resulting in people flat out refusing to believe the sleazy scam-artist framework BS is what is causing their issues. They'll blame everything EXCEPT the lie they've bought into... which is why I compare it to religious or political extremism in terms of the confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance involved.

    Or Apple owners. IT wasn't Apples fault the Macbooks ran so hot they burned your lap, it's a macbook not a laptop, you're not supposed to use it on your lap. It's not Apple's fault the i9 laptops overheated and throttled doing video editing tasks, you're not supposed to use it for video editing even though that's the number one reason anyone would want or need an i9 and the most popular use for a macBook. It's not Apple's fault that the new keyboard design breaks even though their new design is even cheaper than normal laptops, that they still have the unmitigated gall to charge 50% more than the competition for. Because of course, Apple "quality". A term that has as much basis in reality as "biblical truth", "frameworks are easier", "vaccines cause autism", or "I'm a really stable genius".

    WTF is wrong with people?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  18. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #18
    Voluntarily bending themselves over the table and painting a bullseye on their rump in the process.

    Aka, Ron White was right, you can't fix stupid.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  19. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #19
    deathshadow you are missing the point. Yes writing perfect CSS specifically tailored to your project will always perform and view the best across all browsers that YOU took the time to support. No one can argue that. You are right. However, this isn't their objective. Their objective is to quickly get out a final product. Truth is bootstrap will support MOST of your traffic, allow for rapid development, and make it easy for others to take over an existing project or perform updates as it's well documented and easy to use. This is their goal. They don't have a deathshadow working for them who is a master web developer. They have someone who picked up HTML/CSS a month ago. They aren't budgeting for a master developer. Nor can they allocate the time for him to learn and get to your level of mastery. It doesn't happen over night. Bootstrap works for them. It's the right choice.

    I agree with all your points. And I'm sure a lot of Web Developers could benefit from your advice. Even those who have been developing for years. However, it's foolish to decide to reinvent everything yourself especially if you don't have the power, time, and skill set. It just doesn't make sense. Noone cares that a web site uses bootstrap. Only high strung developers do. There are millions of successful web sites out there that use bootstrap and make millions selling their product. They don't give a flying f^ck what some nerd says on a forum. Why would they spend additional time and money writing all of their code out from scratch if it produces the same damn result and same damn margin of profit? They won't. It makes 0 business sense.
     
    NetStar, Jul 3, 2019 IP
  20. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #20
    Which is a bullshit nonsensical claim not supported by anything remotely resembling a FACT! It does the EXACT OPPOSITE of those things can I can't see how anyone could argue otherwise without knowing enough about HTML or CSS to have ANY damned business working with either.

    ... and regardless of the claims, you should still have to AT LEAST learn HTML to use bootcrap. Of course if people did that, they wouldn't use it. Endlessly parroting "saves time and money, saves time and money" when that Is utter and complete BULLSHIT! Hell, it's such stinky manure the bulls are asking "what the foxtrot did you eat?"

    That's not "missing the point" -- THAT IS THE POINT and it does NOT do any of those things you just claimed it did! You just parroted the same fabrication I've heard for nearly a decade now, without anyone actually being able to answer HOW doing more work, having more to learn, and having more code ends up magically "easier", "simpler", "better" or any other unsupported glittering generality that's thrown out there about it.

    But again, Wizard's first rule: People are dumb. They'll believe a lie because they want it to be true, or worse are afraid it might be true.

    ... and that's all these claims about bootcrap and other frameworks are. LIES. Be it intentional or out of ignorance, doesn't change the fact these systems are more made-up fairy-tale than actual improvements in development methodologies. It belongs up there with a flat earth, the Easter bunny, bleach enema's, turmeric as a cure-all, and shoving jade eggs up the holiest of holies. It's THAT level of huffing stupid. It's like the people who bitch about cancer causing food additives whilst drinking coffee and wine.

    Allegedly, but in my experience and every supportable fact about the topic is the OPPOSITE of what that train wreck laundry list of how NOT to use HTML or CSS does. More code, harder to write, takes MORE time to develop, tells users with accessibility needs to go sod off...

    HOW THE BLOODY HELL DOES THAT MAKE ANYTHING EASIER?!? Not one of these claims about how "great" it is stands up to even the most cursory of scrutiny!

    Those saying otherwise are either lying to cover up for their own ignorance/ineptitude, or blindly parroting what they've been told because they just don't know any better. Its success is the result of propaganda and gullibility, and has not a single blasted thing to do with any actual merits of the outdated 1990's development mindset they've gone out of their way to recreate.

    ... and when I ask that question, seriously, in all earnestness: "HOW?!?" I get one of two responses.

    1) a card stacked example of something that should never be deployed in the first place.

    2) "It just does, so shut up".

    That's what's so insulting, infuriating, and just plain stupid about it. People MAKE the claims of easier, or more productive, or saves you time/money, but even someone three weeks into learning HTML should be able to see straight through that bullshit. Which I suspect is what's happening with @Gary-SC. He's not yet been indoctrinated by years of propaganda and confirmation bias yet, so he can see the flaws more clearly than someone who's been riding the sucker train for years.

    Which is why using it for "business" is for all intents and purposes ripping off clients. Blatantly, openly, and then making excuses thanks to again, blindly parroting the unsupported propaganda like a second rate cultist.

    Hence why when those defending it say garbage like:

    I genuinely have ZERO huffing clue what the f*** your talking about... because these systems and approaches DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!

    But sure, I'm not getting the point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019 IP