Why I don't like tables

I'd be interested to hear why there's so much dislike when it comes to tables. Anyone?

J.D.

 

I've heard many sucessful webmasters using layers.

The problem with tables is that they can easily get confusing and little things can mean a big difference cross brower. Tables aren't hard, but it's often difficult to make them clean or avoid too many internal tables...

My feeble brain can't think up a better system, but damn, I guess it pays to get a good editor to avoid unnecessary confusion. It would also help if browser distributors could agree on a universal interpretation standard... :roll:

 

well,i tried to learn the table codings for a couple of years,and i never seems to get the hang of it. it just looks complicated to me.

i prefer CSS.

 

css?

But how do you specifically position things? Without tables, your options are quite limited.

Tables working like u want them 2 is a matter of experimentation - I got it after about 10 hours of experiementing with different things.

 

you can position anything you want anywhere you want using css absolute positioning. check it out. you might never go back to tables again.

 

i dont do heavy coding. =D just normal stuff.for my blog and stuff.i dont design sites or anything.

and yup, dazzlindonna is right.CSS is fantastic.

 

Tables go hand-in-hand with CSS. Here's the CSS chapter on tables:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/tables.html

In HTML4 all HTML formatting is depreciated in favor of CSS.

J.D.

 

haha yeah i know
but i just cant code tables using html.it is just different...to me.

 

I always use table, with a little CSS. The reason is that I don't know about other tool, like layer etc... But I never feel terrible with that (I use PHP).

 

Call me "old school" but I don't think I could lay out a page w/o the use of tables. I just ensure that all table tags are closed for the non-ie browsers. I still don't have the greatest understanding of css. I use it, but not that much.

 

after dabbling with css for the past 2 weeks..i now find myself halfway through a full site rebuild. Which shows that its worth it.....in some instances.


However css is also crap !
i am in the process of setting up a css challenge...to try to prove it, as so many people attempt to defend CSS.
but dont have alot of time to work on it this week.

integrating css, tables and totally non-css is the best for me.

tables are great...just try to stay away from lots of nested tables..and don't put your whole page inside one big table...which I did...and is part of the reason for a full rebuild

 

I have to say this now, it's been stuck in my mind for a month or two:

Designing websites with tables is like setting up letters/contracts/books/posters/menues/add-more-here-if-you-like with a spreadsheet like Excel. It can be done... but then why do we all use mswords (or the like) for writing letters and Photoshop and Illustrator for other presentations?? Because they are better suited for the purpose.

You may protest here, but seriously - and I love Excel - don't tell me it's smart to use Excel for writing and or presenting content (on your computer now.. not thinking 'bout the net).

That being said spreadsheet will allways be a good tool for tables and so will web-tables for content that needs to be presented in a table-like manner.

 

CSS may be frustrating at first - it's a bit of a switch from HTML formatting.

You would be wasting your time - CSS is here to stay. It may take you some time to learn CSS, but it will be time well-spent.

I'm not trying to convince you - you don't like CSS, it's cool. Take a look at this, though, before going on a crusade against CSS:

<tr>
<td width="186" bgcolor="#CC9900" height="54" nowrap><p align="center"><b><a href="London/London.htm">LONDON</a></b></td>
<td width="186" bgcolor="#CC9900" height="54" nowrap><p align="center"><b><a href="London/London.htm">LONDON</a></b></td>
</tr>

Code (markup):

Here's the same line formatted with CSS:

<style type="text/css">
table.my-table td {width: 186px; background-color: #CC9900; height: 54px; white-space: nowrap; text-align: center; font-weight: bold;}
</style>
...
<table class="my-table">
<tr>
<td><a href="London/London.htm">LONDON</a></td>
<td><a href="London/London.htm">LONDON</a></td>
</tr>
</table>

Code (markup):

As you can see, there's less cell HTML in the second case. If you want to change any of the properties, you just flip them in one place. How cool is that?!

J.D.

 

hi J D
i must point out i am not completely against CSS...for some parts of a page/site its great...a code saver and a time saver...
but if you are changing content and syles all the time...then CSS is a waste of time...everytime you change something,you need to change your CSS.
If you have static content..or can decide on a style that you never want to change,then CSS is great.
don't you agree?

 

I'm left wondering How would you do it so you don't have to do anything when you change style? I mean, CSS will still be easier as you do it in one place for any number of pages.

 

its really fast to edit stuff with a wysiwyg editor...you CSS your page and anything that several pages have in common.....and wysiwyg your tables/cells.

let me put it another way...i expect to have 28,000 pages with different content in EACH page (eventually) each page will have a UNIQUE table on it.
i cannot possibly have CSS for 28K pages...
i am working on an example...gimme 10 min



EDIT

ok...here's a quick example...
http://www.justoneuk.com/CSSthis.htm

to change the top table to the bottom one....took 45 seconds..
font faces have changed..font sizes have changed...font colours have changed, cell backgrounds have changed..hyperlink removed..some text is bold...
i bet you by the time you write the CSS for either of the tables...i can build another 5 or more?.....ready? ....steady....

CSS is great for THEMES or THEMED pages...and to cover the 'big stuff'
i don't mind CSS and i don't mind tables .....its just the people who go around chanting CSS CSS CSS....ooooooooo it gets my back up

made 2 more aswell for the sake of it...took 1 min to make the other two.

 

You're saying that big ammounts of small (unique) changes are easier done in WYSIWYG and hence faster to find and change directly in the html in the tables... well I do see your point...

But 28.000... well there you go. I'm afraid I don't quite have neither experince nor fantasy to figure that one out in favor of CSS. All I do see, is lots and lots of tedious work

On another note - I liked the challenge hehe. Very enthusiastic

 

I don't think this is the case. CSS lets you to collect all styles in one place, but also allows you to override them when you need it. For example, you can do this:

<style>p {color: red}</style>
...
<p style="color: blue;">text</p>

Code (markup):

That's essentially the same as if you just used HTML formatting. You can also do multiple classes:

<style>
p.my-color {color: red}
p.my-weight {font-weight: bold;}
</style>
...
<p class="my-color my-weight">text</p>

Code (markup):

That's pretty flexible. Here's what I like about tables and CSS:

<style type="text/css">table.my-table {border-collapse: collapse;}
table.my-table td {border: 1px solid green; padding: 2px 5px;}
table.my-table tbody.body-1 td {color: red;}
table.my-table tbody.body-2 td {color: blue;}
</style>
...
<table class="my-table">
<tbody class="body-1">
	<tr><td>1-1<td>1-2
	<tr><td>2-1<td>2-2
</tbody>
<tbody class="body-2">
	<tr><td>1-1<td>1-2
	<tr><td>2-1<td>2-2
</tbody>
</table>

Code (markup):

I didn't even have to create and repeat cell classes for every cell/row. Try doing this without tbody (CSS or no CSS)!

You can call CSS anything, but it sure as hell isn't static

J.D.

 

thank goodness someone in the world sees it along the lines i do.

J.D
I KNOW you can create ANYTHING you want to in CSS..including tableless designs...and much more.
but its so much faster to set up a page style in css for as much as you can,
and dont worry about the rest.
I can have 20 examples of an advert ready and uploaded for a customer
in a few minutes..quicker than anyone could write the CSS.
Now, if i was the customer...i would take that

 

<style>
p.my-color {color: red}
p.my-weight {font-weight: bold;}
</style>
...
<p class="my-color my-weight">text</p>


thats pretty good....but your style sheet will be HUGE when it runs onto 100's of colours...and a pain to change