45% of Americans don't go to college , Why do you consider yourselves well educated ?

I dunno man. I've worked with quite a few of the Fortune 500 companies and they send a lot of software development projects overseas.

 

No question about it. Regardless, I'll stand by my previous statements. Custom software development works best when the customers, business analysts, and development teams all have contact with one another. A lot of the Fortune 500 have business units abroad which have software development needs and I find it highly improbable that they send that work back to the US for development.

Right now, there is absolutely nothing stopping these guys from sending ALL of their development overseas, yet they don't. It obviously isn't because the cost of development is cheaper in the US. Like you, I have a little experience with the fortune 500 in this area, so we can go back and forth speculating about the reasons, but the current state of the H1B visa program remains the single best witness for the defense(Me).

 

Let's reply to the second question first , Yes didn't you steal oil from Iraq ?? Do you believe you really started the war against them for the sake of Democracy ?

And to the first question , Well I've only studied Evolution at High school so I don't claim to know it all , We've no problems to believe in Evolution but will exclude a small part which is Evolution of Human , Then It's ok to believe in Evolution of Nature , Big Bang , and such theories .For you , you might consider these theories prove Atheism , though I see them proving Theism and Creation ( Even though I know you consider creation a wrong theory and Evolution as a true theory but I don't see them contradicting except in the part of human and some small parts )

 

Of course we didn't steal oil from Iraq. We do purchase some Iraqi oil, but oil is a fungible commodity.

U.S. oil imports for the last 12 months:

1. Venezuela 22.731
2. Saudi Arabia 21.082
3. Nigeria 19.510
4. Algeria 10.365
5. Iraq 9.587
6. Angola 8.749
7. Kuwait 3.852
8. Ecuador 3.534
9. Libya 1.599
10. United Arab Emirates 0.716
11. Qatar 0.132
12. Bahrain 0.024

The war was started when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.

 

Well , It's stupid to believe Lies very easily ..
Do you think your country will tell you , We are going to invade Iraq for oil ??

Legal official imports don't prove your point , You stole more than what you legally import from Iraq .

 

You ignore facts and just make up lies whenever your ridiculous arguments fail -- which is constantly. You are a liar. You are without honor. You have shamed yourself and your family.

 

The question was from which Arab state do you hail. Did you not understand the question?

You believe in evolution, but not as applied to humans? Final answer? So you believe you are a descendant of Adam and Eve, and they were put on earth by god, but every other living thing appeared by evolution? Why don't you explain to us the specifics of your beliefs, college boy.

I won't respond to your thread derail regarding stealing oil from Iraq. It has nothing to do with the questions or the topics, although I suppose it does prove a point that you do not require evidence to form beliefs. More evidence that you haven't the first clue about critical thinking.

 

The figures I gave were for US incorporated companies. For a list of top ten companies receiving H1B's check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Usage_of_H-1B_by_outsourcing_firms as you'll see most of them are Indian companies investing in US.

Softwares for stock exchanges and traffic systems in the west are developed in India, A chunk of development for Windows OS happens in India.

http://pcquest.ciol.com/content/technology/2009/109120501.asp
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_microsoft-hyderabad-key-contributor-to-windows-7_1301470
http://www.cxotoday.com/News/IT/ITe...contribution_to_VS_2010/551-110497-20922.html

Small and Medium scale firms too prefer to get their softwares made in Bangalore than US since costs are are way cheaper. Thats how the multibillion dollar software industry in India is thriving. So outsourcing is certainly a reality and is growing.


Consider this, there is a shortage of say corn in US, it is available but at high prices and is not enough to feed everyone, now the government waives all import duties and trade restrictions for corn and the domestic market is flooded by cheaper imports bringing the prices down and making it affordable for everyone. Demand and Supply. But now people'd say "this is outright theft from American Farmers facilitated by the congress, imagine spending an entire year growing corn only to see the prices come down. Look at the salaries of fat americans, do you think they cannot afford corn at double rates?"

 

Look at your list again. The Indian companies in the top 10 are services firms who farm work out to American business, not the American employers who actually create the jobs. What you are pointing out is the fact this legislation creates a few very wealthy Indian companies who exploit Indian labor at the cost of American jobs. The corporate consumers of this labor are happy, while the US tech worker gets screwed.

Irrelevant. If it can be done in India cheaper and better, US Corporations who benefit from H1B would not be looking to raise the number of visas per year above its already high number.

Apples and oranges. You are talking about a commodity (Corn), I am talking about services performed at a given location(the USA). To make your analogy correct, we would have to compare development costs and product quality for two equivalent products, one developed in the USA, one in India. You'll notice I haven't spoken out against that. What I am talking about are people who are companies that are circumventing our immigration laws to flood US markets with cheap labor.

Let me put this in words you might understand. Lets imagine the people in India who Employ you or compete with you (assuming you are a business) decide they'd like to pay less for the type of thing you offer. Your neighbors in Russia and Pakistan, due to their crappy government and instable economy offer the same thing you do for 10% of the cost. Your employers(or competitors) work a deal with the Indian government to augment the workforce in your particular field or niche by 1% of the size of India's population every year. These people come in from Russia and Pakistan and cause your wages(business income) stagnate and fall. Would you be making the same argument, and pushing to open the floodgates so more could be brought in?

 

They don't because they can't do it overnight. They already have a huge employee base in US and they can't recreate the required infrastructure in another country. Manufacturing has already shifted to china, tech R&D is shifting to India. Manufacturing didn't shift to China overnight, First chinese workers were imported(which Californians called "the yellow invasion") and then entire production was done in China.

Did you know that Levi Strauss (san francisco ) jeans are made in India and China and exported to san francisco? it didn't happen overnight.

US economy is creating more jobs than can be filled by their available human resource, if the work isn't outsourced and worker imported then you would basically be producing things your consumerist economy cannot afford.

Thats what globalistaion is about. If the services of Russians (lets leave the pakistanis, thats like Saudi employing jews) are making the life of Indian consumers better by brining down costs 10 times, and making Indian companies more competitive internationally so they can multiply their profits and bring more FE in the country (comparable to US tech firms) then why not?

 

Lets stay on topic. We are talking about importing labor from impoverished nations like yours to create unfair competition. The merits of sending the work out of country to be done overseas is an entirely different thing.

A) You have no facts to back up either of these claiims. B) I've already dispelled the bullsh*t that surrounds that type of argumentation in several other posts. C) The real unemployment rate in California, home of Silicon valley, is around 20%. That statistic alone proves your claim to be entirely false. Lets stick with the facts.

I've explained the reasons why not very clearly. If Indian's have it better than the African population, why don't you flood the market with cheap African labor until you have a hard time feeding your family. That is most definitely NOT what globalization is about, regardless of whether it is going to shave a few dollars off of one of your cheaply produced automobiles or motorcycles.

Everyone seems to have their own ideas of what Globalization is about. The protesters at the G20 think it is about enslaving the third world. You seem to think it is about importing cheap foreign labor to destroy the local market for jobs and drive the cost of consumable products down. Globalization is about free trade and opening up new markets for new products, both yours and ours.

By the way, regarding your first example, there are very few educated Americans who think sending all our manufacturing overseas was a bright thing to do.

 

20% are you sure? With that kind of stats I wonder how can you call US a developed country? Weren't you and rob saying a page back how even the uneducated can find work in US and are not a liability? 20% people living on welfare payments and food stamps definately sounds like a liabilty to me. Kinda contradicting yourself? It all boils down to education then. A high school grad would have a difficult time finding a job in the silicon valley.

Wrong. I'm a commerce student and I can tell for sure that globalisation more than giving US goods a free access to our economy. It involves free flow of good, services, labor and capital.

Globalization for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

It was. Now you can afford a better car at the same price, a faster machine and more clothes. While at the same time it makes US companies more competitive in the ROW bringing in more money to the country.

I am not saying that Indians or anyone have a birth right to work in the US..what I'm sayin is that its good for everyone. The immigrants, US companies, the consumers and even the workers. If Nintendo did all its R&D in US hiring US techs for 300,000$ and manufactured its consoles in US by paying factory workers $80/hour while SONY at the same time did all this in China and India then the PSP would cost 10 times less than Nintendo DS, now what would you buy? Eventually Nintendo would go bankrupt all its US employees earning 300,000 would be out on the streets and then the champions of globalisation be saying that we shouldn't let PSP imports.

People are bitter because they don't get over-payed for their job anymore while its not in the best interests of anyone, not even them as ultimately the domestic industry will be destroyed and they job less.

 

http://loanworkout.org/2009/10/real-california-unemployment-rate-at-19-6/

couldn't agree more.

I said it used to be that way. We are busily destroying our country by doing exactly what you claim is a great thing. We basically bypass the immigration laws to flood our market with degreed people from abroad willing to work for less.

To be fair, it depends on the high school grad. I have personally worked for, and contracted other people to senior management in the fortune 500. Conversely, a good portion, of that 20% without work has a 4 year degree.

I'll grant you they include labor in the list of things they would like free flow of, but lets be fair, the very next line in the description says, "and labor... although considerable barriers remain to the flow of labor". Pro globalization or not, you are going to have a hard time selling the idea of bringing in immigrant labor in an economy with 20% unemployment.

Riddle me this. When we no longer make anything locally, when we no longer use our own educated people to produce things, because someone from abroad will do it at 10% of the cost, when we no longer build our own houses, because latinos will do it for pennies, what will the average American do(you know, one of the 70% without a college degree)? List of possible answers:

A) Work for pennies along side the foreign labor, assuming there are any jobs(Africa has a lot of starving people)
B) Work for the federal government

Obviously not a bright future. Limits on immigration exist for a variety of very good reasons, as I'm sure you know from bordering Pakistan. When you pay what I have to pay for a IT degree, or a MD, or a PHD, we can talk about leveling the playing field. I'll go a step further. We shouldn't be sending any work OUT to your country either until your businesses have to comply with all the same labor laws our businesses have to comply with. We are talking about a level playing field after all.

And what I'm saying is that it is highly debatable. Yes there are many aspects of globalization that can be very mutually beneficial. To make the claim it is always beneficial and never destructive is naive in the extreme. Even the people pushing it in good faith have the common sense to admit there are a LOT of problems to be worked out.

We've been cherry picking the best and brightest from around the world for a very long time. I hope you aren't trying to compare a Java programmer with someone designing a microchip. The latter we'll take, the former we got, and have no need for an additional 150k on an annual basis outside of the normal channels of immigration.

I'm a big fan of supply and demand economics. Lets dump a half a million of Africa's best and brightest into India and watch you brag about what a great thing it is as you no longer get over-paid for your job. The reasoning you just presented is common fair as the have nots take from the haves.

 

No I don't understand the first very well .. And I'm too lazy to google it .

And about Evolution , I already told you that yes maybe I'm correct and maybe not so I can't say a Final decision , My knowledge about Evolution Theory isn't very wide .. Just from Biology courses at High school .

It's Fun to read , See what our descendants will be like http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-489653/Human-race-split-different-species.html LOL

 

Wrong.
If all the Americans become unemployed due to outsourcing, labor wages in US would drop and companies would come back to US. Globalization ensures equilibrium. Wages would fall, so would the cost of living. Demand drops and so does the cost of production, eventually lifestyle of people will improve. If you leave out what 4 banks did to your country in the last 2 years the lifestyle of americans has improved in the last decade since outsourcing picked up even though you are payed half.

Regardless of how much you and me would like to be overpaid, we both know its not sustainable nor practical. I have someone close working in Air India (government run) for years the company massively over-paid its workers but since the oil price boom it has accumulated losses over 4 billion $, unions wouldn't agree to a pay cut and because of that the Airline will shut down and 40,000 people out of job, unless the government pumps in money. A perfect example of how overpaying can bring down a company/economy and staff.

 

Union labor is an example of price fixing in a market that would otherwise be determined by the laws of supply and demand. As you can see by my many posts on this thread and others, I am opposed to that type of practice.

LoL. I cant believe you are openly trying to sell wage deflation as a good thing. How is lowering the cost of cheap shit made in China going to lower the cost of prime Real Estate? It doesn't. It won't. At least you confirmed my original point, which is that these Visas create wage deflation in America.

There isn't a country on the planet that permits the free flow of labor you describe and there won't be for a very long long time. What you are describing leads to a one world government, one world currency, etc. Its the same thing the Pakistani's are asking of Israel. Just open your borders. One state solution. It would turn Israel into a garbage dump overnight, and you know that. Sell wage deflation in your own country first before you pitch it to the US. India is very blessed compared to many of its neighbors, so open your borders to all of them. Sure it will cause the wages to drop as you describe, but it will lower the cost of your goods. In the long run, it will be better for everyone.

People have got to quit looking at the US as some kind of fix all solution and start fixing their own problems at home. When you get your economy going at home, you won't need to invade some other country for a job that pays more than a dollar an hour. In fact, you'll be able to look down your nose at us and laugh, like the Canadians do, when our politicians completely ass f*ck our economy like they have.

 

Whether its good or not, its a done deal. Its an economic law that everything has to peak out. If you try and keep raising any economic variable forever its going to end up flat on the ground.

Very simple. Since people won't be overpaid so demand for houses would fall.

Which is what we all must move towards. It's the ideal world. We can't remove borders tomorrow but we can start the process.

We have more immigrants than the population of United States, though most of them came as refugees, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Tibet, Kashmir -we got'em all. Though we have surplus labor and wages are already low so I wonder why would someone want to come here for economic reasons? India is a pretty strong economy, when you were in red our growth came down from 9.5% to 7.5% it just shows that we have a strong domestic economy and is unaffected by what happens elsewhere unlike US where 4 banks can bring an economy down..unfortunately right now we can't accommodate 1.2 billion people and there isn't a quick fix to this problem.

Immigration laws were set up by democratically elected governments so I can't help but feel that majority of Americans don't feel so fucked up.

 

Every market has fluctuation. What has that to do with the conversation? State sponsored flooding of our tech market with cheap immigrant labor is most definitely not a "done deal". In the last century there have been more than one occasion where we turned off the inflow of immigration altogether. One time, we even sent recently legalized immigrants back. Though I am only advocating the elimination of the H1Bs, if things continue to head south here, I would not be surprised to see the normal work visa application process tighten. It would be the norm, rather than the exception.

And all the money floating around before the wages got driven down by the cheap labor? That just disappeared? Afraid not. Prime real estate is prime real estate. There is only so much of it. What you will see is a sharper divide between the rich and the poor. We are seeing it already. For the remainder of the real estate market, you will see consolidation. I have a couple friends who have been buying up foreclosure properties in blocks of 100 for the last 3 years at prices approximately 10-30% of 2007 retail. Tight credit markets make for lots of people forced to rent.

I hate to say it, but this is the natural conclusion of truly unabated free market capitalism. Obviously there have to be a few basic principals or rules to keep chaos at bay.

LOL. Why? Are you really arguing you would like the border erased between India and Pakistan? Really?

India has its pluses and minuses like anywhere else. It is no more an economic model for the world to copy than it is an example of a nation with truly open borders. Your decisions to accept large numbers of refugees unquestionably impact your economic conditions, so good on you. Its a noble deed, and you get to live with the consequences. IMO, when there is limited seating in a life boat, you start throwing out life preservers. Packing more people into the life boat just causes the damn thing to sink and everyone dies.

Second time you've made this claim. It is factually incorrect. Our economy was brought down by bad banking and lending practices that the government was actually encouraging. Major bank failures were more of a symptom than the problem, though they definitely became part of the problem for a while. It is interesting, since you bring it up, to point out that cronie capitalism, one of the root causes of this financial melt down, is also the driving force behind the H1B program.

Plague. War. Immigration(either get rid of them, or you move to somewhere less crowded). Did I leave any out?

I suppose you probably don't get American news. It is probably the third hottest topic, behind the oil spill and the economy. In my mind, anyone who is interested in what is going on with our economy should be looking at our immigration policies, both legal and illegal.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...labor-market-as-09-graduates-wait-tables.html
http://www.cis.org/ComputerIdunstryVisas-h1b
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html
http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/editorial_0868.shtm

 

It is so sad to see someone who could be a human completely throw away their reasoning faculties.

 

It is most definitely a done deal (including outsourcing) you are worried about not being over-paid, corps are worried about their profits, government is worried about US products being competitive domestically and internationally (cost wise). In the the end both of us know whose interests are more important for the greater good (of everyone).

Does this example make sense to you:

If Nintendo did all its R&D in US hiring US techs for 300,000$ and manufactured its consoles in US by paying factory workers $80/hour while SONY at the same time did all this in China and India then the PSP would cost 10 times less than Nintendo DS, now what would you buy? Eventually Nintendo would go bankrupt all its US employees earning 300,000 would be out on the streets.

Clearly outsourcing and hiring immigrants (only way to lower costs) is in the interests of people, government, economy, consumers and even labor.

The reality is that the US economy has peaked out or if it hasn't already it'll in the next 20 years. Once it starts falling you people have to decide how much it needs to fall, you can either isolate yourselves and fall to the ground or integrate with the world and stabilize at a lower level. Why else do you think US is suddenly championing Globalisation?