“Death to the enemies of Islam!” the counterdemonstrators cried, encircling the women

it is time that muslems of me and pakistan to follow quran rather than their imam.
they must choose if quran is complete or it is not.
if it is amendable or it is not
if it is final or it is not.
they can not have it both ways.
i think G has a better understanding than new. new is pretty much mislead

 

It is a complex subject and its not all black and white. We cannot have the tyranny of the "OR". We cannot say, is it A "or" B. Its very complex.

Quran cannot be changed. What we are talking about are the laws governing the civil society. We cannot go back to what Taliban wants us to do. There should be a compromise.... a compromise between the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) and the new society we live in...

 

Yes, Quran is complete but did you read the verses that I just posted above ? Quran also says that we should follow what Prophet (PBUH) Said.

I don't say that we should follow Sunna, it is Quran which guides us to follow Sunna
So if you are emphasizing so much on one verse of Quran then you should also give weight-age to other verses of Quran

Quran prescribes the punishment of theft as

"[5:38] The thief, male or female, you shall cut their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."

now what do you say about that?

and while we are discussing the punishments in Islam and Quran, we must also keeps in mind the Islam it not all about punishments. it puts forward a model of a welfare state , a complete social political system . Westerns and media are usually shouting about the 'barbaric' punishments in Islam but they forget that just as the Islamic state has some rights on its occupants similarly the citizens of state also have a good deal of rights over that state

It is not just one way traffic that you keep punishing without giving anything in return .
Caliph Umer ( 2nd of the 4 Righteous Caliphs ) used to say that even if a goat dies near bank of river due to hunger then on the Judgment day I (Umer) will be answerable to God about it

 

i went and read this again. i see that in all but one of the things that is attributed to mohammad he talks about god punishing and forgiving[in case of repenting] the adulteres. i do not see anywhere about him talking about hittting or killing them. then at the end i see that is what is in sharia law. that is the part that is written and spoken by other people that i find it necessary to be considered invalid. i am sure there are punishments for some crimes in quran. just show me the one for gay people and for people that leave islam or where mohammad have said anything in regard to that. or how a woman that is being raped should be treated or things in that line. it seems to me that a lot of these are from your religious leaders rather than your religion. if that is the case and if you reconsider their validity you might find them to be made for the benefit of those leaders and not for a real religious reason. you will have the oppurtunity to right a wrong that has been done to a lot of your people. i do not say not to follow your holy book because that is what you will never do. i ask you to follow your holy book and profit and set aside what your religious leaders attribute to your religion if it does not have a base in your holy book or your profits actuyal sayings. their interpetation might be wrong and specially if you see a conflict then you need to be extra carefull. you still have not shown me anything abouy gays and those who leave your religion.

 

i am not asking for you to change the teaching of quran. it is some muslems that are asking you to that. everytime that they issue a fatwa they ask you to change the meaning of quran

 

Thank you for bringing your perspective to the debate. I would like to believe that your view accurately represents Islam. My fear, however, is that you are in the minority with your understanding. (maybe not the minority but I think many many Muslims do not think as you do and often accept the word of man over the Koran)

It is important for Muslims to have the discussion about what should and should not be treated is the sacrosanct word of Allah.

I have total respect for anyone who wants to practice their Islamic faith. I have no respect for anyone who thinks Islam gives man the right to kill another man for not following Islam. Or thinks they have the right to kill a gay person. It is those types of abusive readings of Islam that cause many in the West concern.

 

here is the verse regarding adultery in Quran
(The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment) (An-Nur 24: 2).

Now I agree with some of yours and guhar points regarding sharia...that it can be changed accordingly BUT it should not be AGAINST what QURAN says,,,,

Moreover...you always need a teacher to teach you what is in the book...There are times when you cant understand a line written in book and your teacher tell you the exact thing but using different words..and you get it at once..
same thing goes for Quran...

If you are thinking that you can find something... word to wood in Quran than you may get disappointed cause Quran tells you the path and ask you to explore it yourself.. It orders you to earn Money by working but it wont tell you what occupation you should chose..cause its you to decide it...thats why you are human being and better than animals.

Sharia is from Quran but the problem is its designed for some specific culture or time...The mistake muslims did is not overhaul it time by time..and thats why now its became almost controversial.

But certain things like punishment of adultery is IN THE QURAN....and they Cant be changed,,,

And your government says that it will protect your country...How do you think he gonna do it???

Obviously with the help of people of the country by recruiting them as soldiers...

same thing apply here bro...ALLAH DO protect his book but HE can use other ways to do it,,

 

I you could have read the Islamonline link then you would have also read


The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) further said: “[Under Islamic laws in an Islamic state] It is not lawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except for one of three sins: a married person committing fornication, and in just retribution for premeditated murder, and [for sin of treason involving] a person renouncing Islam, and thus leaving the community [to join the enemy camp in order to wage war against the faithful].” (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa’i)

This is not something that our 'religious leaders' are attributed, it comes directly from the Prophet (PBUH)

Stoning to death for married adulterer and adulteress was the punishment carried out in times of Prophet , if you want you can dig down the history books and you will find numerous instances where such punishment was given in Era of Prophet (PBUH)

now how can someone who is not even Muslim represent Islam

 

100 floggings... that is the prescribed punishment...

There are some things... like how does a Sharia court determine adultery, or how can a women prove she was raped. Could you throw some light of it? Coz I am a little wary of the old laws, which are pathetically one-sided, and almost seem to be against women.

Agree...

Which teacher would you listen to? Would you listen to Zakhir Naik & Ahmed Deedat, who are the real scholars, or to some smuck from Deoband who understands shit?

The interpretation depends on the teacher...

Quran orders you to think for yourself and make your own decisions...

I agree completely...

What is the punishment for adultery in Quran?

Don't mind, but I am begining to get suspicious of the whole affair. Why did God have to send all (known) Prophets to a desert in the Middle East? Noah, Moses, Jesus, David, Solomon, Muhammad... all of them from the same place, speaking similar language, following a similar culture...

What have other people done? Why not send a few Prophets for the Chinese, or Russians. How about a couple of Prophets for the Latinos... And please don't leave out Africa. They need more prophets than any of us... How many Prophets were sent for Europe? NONE...

Why should all the Prophets come for one group of people only?

I know the Quran says that "We have sent Prophets for every Tribe and every Country" but then why didn't they name a few of them?

 

There came one in Europe in Bulgaria - Beinsa Douno/Deuno. Who preached Love, Wisdom and Truth. Never preached violence, never brutality, never retaliation, never war as a tool for solving problems between nations, never punishment for any kind of sins.

There is One Who manifests Himself as Love, as Wisdom and as Truth.
They call Him God, Lord, Father.


http://beinsadeuno.blogspot.com/

 

Not that i'm here to reinforce scripture, just an answer out of respect for you gauharjk.

AFAIK life began in the ME and as such it should not be surprising many of the so called prophets came from there.

There are many others, such as The Buddha, Confucius, Francis of Assisi, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Erasmus, Elizabeth Seton etc., just to name a few.

The latter may not be considered as prophets but played extremely important roles in starting a newly inspired religion of their own, mostly based on existing thoughts & scriptures.

Like anything, it's being first that gets you remembered and placed into the history books.

 

Beinsa Douno was an interesting man, I've been reading about him, and he seems to have had an enlightened view on women for his time period.

Thanks.

 

but your religion leaders can say that raping is illegal.


For example : the Jewish bible forbid Gay & Trans Gender life, but the Reform Rabbis says it's ok and legal, and we have Gay weddings and TG\TS special ceremonies.

 

A = There are messengers of God in every area and every part of the world...you dont know what happened some thousand years ago..The areas which you named didnt have such names..they got it later...so you cant say that Allah didnt send a prophet to some specific area of the world

Many of friends in this thread name some of them...

 

FIGHT FOR MEN Right's TOO

and I hope that you are happy now regarding the roll back of that controversial SHIA LAW,..not SHARIA...

 

it is you that is reading selectivly here. the orange part pretty much excludes any country today. unless you want t o tell me one that is 100% under islamic laws
this is a tuff hurdle by your standard, and maybe it is there to make it so tuff. since we can not see any such country we can not say how we would feel about such rules being implemented in it.
color red is also very important. It is not enough for a person to leave islam but he must join the enemy and wage war against his country/people. this also makes a big difference but it seems to be ignored by a lot of your imams when they talk about some poor soul that wanted to change his religion. the part about what was happening in time of mohammad is also falls in the orange category. there were different circumstances then that no longer exist today. you can not selectivly implement laws and disregard others. also it is clear that gay people should not be killed.
it seems that you are supporting things outside of what both quran and mohammad say.


color sienna not that i claim any religion but
there is a judgment day that your god has promissed you to judge every man and women as to their guilt and actions and their thoughts. you keep on infringing in gods trritory. here you are judging what is in someones heart. is it your place?

 

@seoz & gauharjk
i agree with gauharjk on enough of what you said to leave it at that.
i have some questions for seoz
why do you need a teacher. isn't it true that you must learn arabic so you can understand quran. if you can not understand it then why should you bother learning arabic. this nonsense about the necessty of teacher is because theachers want to keep their positions. it is not what god wants
question #2
if there were messangers that came later in other parts of the world then mohammad was not the last messanger. you might need better teachers
@brown
i do not follow any religion . i belive that all organized religions are buissneses that are designed to take advantage of the people. i also like to argue and religion provides an excellent oppurtunity to do that. I can do this with jewish people and christians also. i found the three of them foolish in the way that they argue with each other while they say the same things.

 

can you pass your masters by just reading books urself...
can you solve some mathematical equation by just trusting your own skills ??

Why the philosophers wrote books?? why didnt they just let the concept go as one can find it themselves later

Why there are teachers in the world when you can be so smart that you can do your masters by just reading books


Muhammad is the last messenger as ALLAH say HIMSELF in his Holy book Quran that He has completed the religion now...And i guess you know Quran is the last holy book

 

I don't believe they have rolled it back yet, just talk so far as I know. Here's more about the law that exist now, "The new law denies Afghan Shi'a women the right to leave their homes except for "legimitate" purposes; forbids women from working or receiving education without their husbands' express permission; explicitly permits marital rape; diminishes the right of mothers to be their children's guardians in the event of a divorce; and makes it impossible for wives to inherit houses and land from their husbands – even though husbands may inherit immoveable property from their wives. "For a new law in 2009 to target women in this way is extraordinary, reprehensible and reminiscent of the decrees made by the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in the 1990s," Pillay said." Source: RAWA

Seoz, we have gone around in circles about Sharia Law. In this thread you have already stated that it was justice to kill the 16 year old girl for having sex before marriage, and also indicated that the penalty for leaving Islam should be death. Perhaps you love Sharia Law for all the reasons I hate it? I asked you to give me one example of an Islamic country under Sharia Law that is not oppressive to women, your answer was Iran. Yet in Iran, women do not have equal rights in the laws pertaining to divorce, inheritance or child custody. Women do not enjoy basic rights that men take for granted there, and womens rights activists have been arrested for peaceful protest. Women have been discouraged away from many careers, and encouraged to cover up every body part and stay locked up at home. They are discriminated against in an unjust legal system and have been stoned, hanged, and flogged. That's Sharia Law.

 

well according to sharia men are not allowed to do anything he wants..there are restriction on him too...even he is forbid to see a female twice
so saying that only women got these restriction isn't true..however it is true that a women got every punishment or restriction when compare to men's.

and when there is something in a book that this is against law..you wont dare to go against it as there will be surely some punishment in doing so...So think that girls case in same scenario rebecca

you can come up with tomorrow that why they issued you a ticket for not stopping at signal..after all its just a damn signal

And its not a women responsibility to earn money or do job...its her husband duty to earn for her...so when you are getting all the required things why do u go for a job??
Just for fun ??

but if there is a genuine reason ..you can do job..no problem..