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IS democracy truly a universal human goal?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by shahab6, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. #1
    That is to say, are all societies, regardless of cultural differences, striving and ultimately evolving towards democracy as a system of social organization? Another way to ask this: is democracy a highly beneficial and feasible political system for all groups of people?

    Indian economist Amartya Sen once debated this with Samuel Huntington, famous for his highly controversial 'Clash of Civilizations' essay which got him rejected from the US National Academy of Sciences. I must say, I felt Sen was rather weak and idealistic in his arguments. I couldn't stop thinking that Sen has the unusual perspective of a highly successful member of one of the first and most successful non-Westen democracies. Not that there aren't problems and incorrect assumptions in Huntington's view of the world, but overall I think Huntington made a good case for democracy being an essentially Westen cultural institution, that really is only a feasible goal for societies that are either Western or thoroughly indoctrinated with Western values, and that democracy-as-universal-goal is something Westerners have been indoctrinated into by military-industrial-bureaucratic complexes hellbent on world domination.

    I think if you look at history, you'll find quite a number of examples of wealthy, successful societies that were (for their time) exemplary in terms of equality and/or human rights, that were decidedly something other than democratic.

    For example, really none of the wealthy and up-and-coming Asian countries are true democracies, in the Western sense. They've all been dominated by a single political party for decades. Furthermore, social sanctions on behavior trump constitutionally-granted rights in these countries any day. It's very easy to grant rights to people that you're certain no one will ever exercise, for cultural and social reasons. These societies have a thin decoration of democracy, which remains because no one uses it to its full extent, and does a lot for looking good in the eyes of the West. You could say they have a system that works BETTER THAN democracy, at least at the big group level, and at least for them.

    Any thoughts?
     
    shahab6, Oct 17, 2008 IP
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  2. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #2
    I think tribal living, how the natives in America lived is a universal human goal (not that I know their history much).. live and let live, nobody controls you, that's what we should strive for. Not 51% control the other 49.
     
    ncz_nate, Oct 17, 2008 IP
  3. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #3
    Fantastic topic. I have touched on this a bit, in terms of Bush's woeful ignorance in wanting to transplant the notion of western democracy as a "seed" of democracy in the Middle East:

    I don't want to add anything more, now, because you've raised some very interesting questions and notions, and I'm only tangentially addressing anything on it, at the moment. I want to ponder a bit. Just a nod for a really great topic, hope it gets some considered input. :)

    Paul

    Edited to add: I think some of what Ernest Gellner addressed in his work, (See, for instance, Nations and Nationalism), and other theorists in the line of Gellner's work, may be interesting in terms of your final paragraph. Basically, notions of "gemeinschaft," or "community" - the interrelated, organic aggregation of individuals, each perfectly happy to sublimate individual drives to the needs of the "body" of interrelated human beings, v. "gesellschaft," or society, which I've always constructed as something like the brownian movement of particles in a liquid cell (See the work of 19th century sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies for the birth of these, I believe). Under gesellschaft, actors are frenetic, mobilized and assert their desires, without any organic relationship to any other particle in the cell. At its most basic, yes, it sure as hell is ridiculous to assume one can introduce a completely pluralistic democracy presuming discrete, unitary actors in a place that has long, long histories, embedded institutions, local norms that value the organic "whole."

    By the way - given your discussion of Huntington's Clash of Civilizations, you may find an article I read a few years back, out of my alma mater, an interesting read - it's by M. Steven Fish, and it evaluates notions of "democracy" inside Islamic societies (see page 17 for a brief discussion of Huntington's theme). WARNING: PDF.

    @Nate: You can, and very well may, tell me to fuck off, which is cool. I know you hate the federal system, believe Lincoln was an asshole, and that secession is a natural right. I have to tell you that for me, it isn't secession that your avatar stands for, but the enslavement and blood of millions of men, women and children, and it is in this respect no different, for me, than if someone were to have the Nazi flag as an avatar. I've read the firsthand accounts of ship's passages and slave "property" escrows; seen the images of the last free place these human beings saw before their journey to hell. Again - you will, and can, do what you want. But I disagree with your using it; it's how I feel.
     
    northpointaiki, Oct 17, 2008 IP
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  4. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

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    #4
    Democracy isn't a particularly productive form of government and is essentially mob rule, Which leads to the leaders pandering to achieve the most votes than actually doing what's right. The idea that everyone's vote should count equally is in it's self a flawed idea.

    Democratic governments spend so much time worrying about getting re-elected that they are inefficient at doing the job they were elected to do in the first place.
     
    stOx, Oct 18, 2008 IP
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  5. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #5
    Well you're the history buff here, didn't the North have their fair share of enslavement as well? I don't view the flag as the favoring side for slavery, I view slavery as the unfortunate side of history. It happened, and if all the northerners moved south for a time they'd be using just as many slaves, because at the time it was most beneficial for the South's agricultural advantages.

    I see why you don't like it, but you must know something more than I do. I just don't believe that flag represents anything more than the free spirit of humanity.

    That may sound hypocritical, I do think slavery is wrong under any circumstance and can see why so many blacks in the south hate white people. But like I said I believe it was an unfortunate byproduct of history, think of all the blood spilled in the name of the Original 13 (not just the British but the natives we purged off this land), there's surely some horrific images there. Better yet the blood spilled for our newest flag, we have done some TERRIBLE things under the name of this country in the past few years but I'd say there's still a many proud to represent it.


    If there were an official Native American flag, I'd claim those colors.. but until I can find one the Confederate Flag represents my most fundamental belief, "we're no one's bitch".
     
    ncz_nate, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  6. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #6
    Nate, I do understand where you're coming from, and there's no shortage of hypocrisy to go around. I guess I'm just having a tough time divorcing the symbol from the institutional slavery that existed in the ante-bellum South, and it cuts me pretty much to the quick. But you are right in that the issue isn't so clean-cut, as I knew, and I'd like to stop and do some further thinking. If you've never read Kenneth Stamp's The Peculiar Institution, I'd recommend the read.
     
    northpointaiki, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  7. ncz_nate

    ncz_nate Well-Known Member

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    #7
    just put it on my wish list, which reminds me.. i have a pretty big reading list waiting for me. :eek:
     
    ncz_nate, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  8. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #8
    The rebel flag still stands on the State Grounds in South Carolina and the rebel flag that flew above the State House sells for thousands. If you want to own a part of history contact me. It's documentation has an official postage date and time and is signed by a state senator and governor.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  9. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #9
    Hear you, man. My shelf is stuffed with books I'll never get to - I'm tragically obsessed with used book stores, and a soft touch for great editions of books, to boot. :eek:
     
    northpointaiki, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  10. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #10
    Democracy is a flawed system. Many people don't know what or who's good for them. Some people have pitiful skills of judgement. But it seems to be a necessary evil at times.

    Machine government is the only way forward, maybe it will be a reality someday.
    Efficient amoral systematic neutral .............
     
    lightless, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  11. earthfaze

    earthfaze Peon

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    #11
    I think as cultures evolve new systems will arise that will be better than any current one. I don't think you can throw one cultures government at another and force it to fit. The culture will reject it for one they feel better suits their current needs and experiences. I personally prefer the concept of a more tribal life, something like Mayberry only with people I actually wanted to hang out with.
     
    earthfaze, Oct 18, 2008 IP
  12. Barti1987

    Barti1987 Well-Known Member

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    #12
    Unless Democracy is enclosed within a field of dictatorship, it will not be possible to have a universal democratic governorship.

    Peace,
     
    Barti1987, Oct 18, 2008 IP