Give Me Liberty

Bernard Well-Known Member

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#1

A warning about the direction the country is headed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Is she a nutjob? Time will tell, but the building blocks are being put in place:

Just 45 days after the September 11 attacks, with virtually no debate, Congress passed the USA PATRIOT Act. There are significant flaws in the Patriot Act, flaws that threaten your fundamental freedoms by giving the government the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for weeks, months, or indefinitely.
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Patriot Act

With the Domestic Security Enhancement Act the Administration would seek ""to take the Patriot Act's antiterror powers several steps further.""[1] Dubbed ""Patriot Act 2,"" the legislation would grant additional sweeping powers to the government, eliminating or weakening remaining limits on government surveillance, wiretapping, detention and prosecution.

I. Patriot Act 2: An Overview

""An American citizen suspected of being part of a terrorist conspiracy could be held by investigators without anyone being notified. He could simply disappear."" - New York Times Magazine, February 23, 2003

The government would no longer be required to disclose the identity of anyone, even an American citizen, detained in connection with a terror investigation - until criminal charges are filed, no matter how long that takes (sec 201).

Current court limits on local police spying on religious and political activity would be repealed (sec. 312).

The government would be allowed to obtain credit records and library records without a warrant (secs. 126, 128, 129).

Wiretaps without any court order for up to 15 days after terror attack would be permissible. (sec. 103).

Release of information about health/safety hazards posed by chemical and other plants would be restricted (sec. 202).

The reach of an already overbroad definition of terrorism would be expanded - individuals engaged in civil disobedience could risk losing their citizenship (sec. 501); their organization could be subject to wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) and asset seizure (secs. 428, 428).

Americans could be extradited, searched and wiretapped at the behest of foreign nations, whether or not treaties allow it (sec. 321, 322).

Lawful immigrants would be stripped of the right to a fair deportation hearing and federal courts would not be allowed to review immigration rulings (secs. 503, 504).

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Patriot Act II

In the final hours before adjourning in 2006, Congress passed and the president signed the Military Commissions Act (MCA). In doing so, they cast aside the Constitution and the principle of habeas corpus, which protects against unlawful and indefinite imprisonment. They also gave the president absolute power to designate enemy combatants, and to set his own definitions for torture.
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Military Commissions Act

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), born after the Watergate scandal, establishes how the government can secretly eavesdrop on Americans in their own country in intelligence investigations. It was originally passed to allow the government to collect foreign intelligence information involving communications with "agents of foreign powers."

On July 10, 2008, President Bush signed the unconstitutional FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (FAA), supposedly aimed at â€œupdatingâ€ the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Unfortunately, the law meant to â€œupdateâ€ FISA instead gutted the original law by eviscerating the role of the judicial oversight in government surveillance. The law also gave sweeping immunity to the telecommunications companies that aided the Bush administrationâ€™s unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping program by handing over access to our communications without a warrant.
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FISA Amendments Act of 2008

Pending: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

Homeland Security Checkpoints - getting closer to "papers, please".

Bernard, Oct 6, 2008 IP

Rebecca Prominent Member

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#2

I watched that video today, and Naomi Wolf is amazing. I don't think she is a nut. Everything she said was a fact. The only thing that wasn't necessarily a fact, is her conclusion that the eroding of our rights is all part of a master plan. I hope she's not right, but either way she is an excellent spokesperson for liberty. I'm going to buy her book.

Rebecca, Oct 6, 2008 IP

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browntwn Illustrious Member

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#3

Rebecca said: ↑

I don't think she is a nut. Everything she said was a fact. The only thing that wasn't necessarily a fact . . .
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Does that make sense when you type it?

browntwn, Oct 6, 2008 IP

ThoughtPunk Active Member

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#4

you should watch zeitgeist 2, its good. part one is kick ass too. it will make you question a few things.

ThoughtPunk, Oct 6, 2008 IP

Rebecca Prominent Member

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#5

browntwn said: ↑

Does that make sense when you type it?
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Browntwn, it would have made more sense for you to write, "Did that make sense when you typed it?" Not sure why you enjoy personal attacks so much, but I really have better things to do with my time.

Rebecca, Oct 6, 2008 IP

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browntwn Illustrious Member

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#6

Rebecca said: ↑

Browntwn, it would have made more sense for you to write, "Did that make sense when you typed it?" Not sure why you enjoy personal attacks so much, but I really have better things to do with my time.
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That was not a personal attack. I just found it humorous that you would say in one sentence that she got every fact correct and then in the very next sentence start to point out what was not correct.

Thanks for pointing out my typo and providing more humor. Don't you find it a little ironic that you would complain about my post calling it a personal attack and yet do something very similar in yours pointing out my error?

browntwn, Oct 6, 2008 IP

gauharjk Notable Member

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#7

ThoughtPunk said: ↑

you should watch zeitgeist 2, its good. part one is kick ass too. it will make you question a few things.
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That anti-religion stuff? Useless

gauharjk, Oct 6, 2008 IP

cientificoloco Well-Known Member

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#8

gauharjk said: ↑

That anti-religion stuff? Useless
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why? because it is anti-religion?

cientificoloco, Oct 6, 2008 IP

gauharjk Notable Member

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#9

cientificoloco said: ↑

why? because it is anti-religion?
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No, the movie, Zeitgeist 2, is excellent. I've just watched about an hour of it. It is very important that this info spreads around... Its the truth... Spot on...

And about religion, it is a confusing subject. A new documentary is out there... http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=gAcxGD6-c-E which claims Jesus Christ was the son of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra... LOL...

gauharjk, Oct 7, 2008 IP

contentedge Active Member

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#10

"An American citizen suspected of being part of a terrorist conspiracy could be held by investigators without anyone being notified. He could simply disappear."

It happened a lot in India when our prime minister was assassinated by an extremist outfit over a decade back. A lot of 'suspects' were tortured, shot at, and a lot of them simply vanished into thin air. Scary.

contentedge, Oct 7, 2008 IP

gauharjk Notable Member

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#11

contentedge said: ↑

"An American citizen suspected of being part of a terrorist conspiracy could be held by investigators without anyone being notified. He could simply disappear."

It happened a lot in India when our prime minister was assassinated by an extremist outfit over a decade back. A lot of 'suspects' were tortured, shot at, and a lot of them simply vanished into thin air. Scary.
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Its still happening now, when young men get picked up by police for questioning after some terrorist incident a hundred kilometers away, and then they disappear, never to return.

gauharjk, Oct 7, 2008 IP

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Bernard Well-Known Member

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#12

contentedge said: ↑

"An American citizen suspected of being part of a terrorist conspiracy could be held by investigators without anyone being notified. He could simply disappear."

It happened a lot in India when our prime minister was assassinated by an extremist outfit over a decade back. A lot of 'suspects' were tortured, shot at, and a lot of them simply vanished into thin air. Scary.
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I had family in Argentina during the Dirty War period:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/argentina.htm

Bernard, Oct 7, 2008 IP

contentedge Active Member

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#13

gauharjk said: ↑

Its still happening now, when young men get picked up by police for questioning after some terrorist incident a hundred kilometers away, and then they disappear, never to return.
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The problem with Indian police force is that they were formed by the British to serve the colonial masters, not people. Our dimwitted politicians have not brought in any kind of major policy change since independence to reform the system. It was evident in the Nithari case where a pedophile happily sodomized and killed a lot of children and the cases were not even registered by the UP police. There was a heated argument on TV regarding this case and IPS officer Kiren Bedi argued that the laws that the policemen are supposed to follow are outdated and draconian. She insisted that politicians should bring in some major changes. But knowing India, I know it will take another 30-40 years for that to really happen.

contentedge, Oct 7, 2008 IP

Rebecca Prominent Member

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#14

I went to Border's tonight and bought Give Me Liberty. It is actually not what I expected at all, but I'm looking forward to reading it. What I expected was for her to cover habeas corpus, government surveillance, etc. I found out that she covered all that in her other book, The End of America. With Give Me Liberty, it explains how to fight the erosion of freedom, with tactics far beyond just writing your local congressman. I plan to read The End of America after Give Me Liberty. Anyway, thanks Bernard for posting this thread, it has been interesting.

Rebecca, Oct 7, 2008 IP

Bernard Well-Known Member

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#15

Thanks for the feedback on the books. I'd like to check them out myself. I spend too much time on the internet....

If you didn't click the link above about the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007, you should. It would put this into proper context:

The Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent activists as terrorists and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases that track terrorism suspects, the state police chief acknowledged yesterday.

Police Superintendent Terrence B. Sheridan revealed at a legislative hearing that the surveillance operation, which targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war, was far more extensive than was known when its existence was disclosed in July.

The department started sending letters of notification Saturday to the activists, inviting them to review their files before they are purged from the databases, Sheridan said.

"The names don't belong in there," he told the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee. "It's as simple as that."

The surveillance took place over 14 months in 2005 and 2006, under the administration of former governor Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R). The former state police superintendent who authorized the operation, Thomas E. Hutchins, defended the program in testimony yesterday. Hutchins said the program was a bulwark against potential violence and called the activists "fringe people."

Sheridan said protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations in the databases, but his staff has not identified which ones.

Stunned senators pressed Sheridan to apologize to the activists for the spying, assailed in an independent review last week as "overreaching" by law enforcement officials who were oblivious to their violation of the activists' rights of free expression and association. The letter, obtained by The Washington Post, does not apologize but admits that the state police have "no evidence whatsoever of any involvement in violent crime" by those classified as terrorists.

Hutchins told the committee it was not accurate to describe the program as spying. "I doubt anyone who has used that term has ever met a spy," he told the committee.

"What John Walker did is spying," Hutchins said, referring to John Walker Jr., a communications specialist for the U.S. Navy convicted of selling secrets to the Soviet Union. Hutchins said the intelligence agents, whose logs were obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland as part of a lawsuit, were monitoring "open public meetings." His officers sought a "situational awareness" of the potential for disruption as death penalty opponents prepared to protest the executions of two men on death row, Hutchins said.

"I don't believe the First Amendment is any guarantee to those who wish to disrupt the government," he said. Hutchins said he did not notify Ehrlich about the surveillance. Ehrlich spokesman Henry Fawell said the governor had no comment.

Hutchins did not name the commander in the Division of Homeland Security and Intelligence who informed him in March 2005 that the surveillance had begun. More than a year later, after "they said, 'We're not getting much here,' " Hutchins said he cut off what he called a "low-level operation."

But Sen. James Brochin (D-Baltimore County) noted that undercover troopers used aliases to infiltrate organizational meetings, rallies and group e-mail lists. He called the spying a "deliberate infiltration to find out every piece of information necessary" on groups such as the Maryland Campaign to End the Death Penalty and the Baltimore Pledge of Resistance. When Hutchins called their members "fringe people," the audience of activists who filled the seats in the hearing room in Annapolis sighed.

Some activists said yesterday that they have received letters; others said they were waiting with anticipation to see whether they were on the state police watch list.

Laura Lising of Catonsville, a member of the Baltimore Coalition Against the Death Penalty, received her notification yesterday. She said she wants a hard copy of her file, because she does not trust the police to purge it. "We need as much protection as possible," she said.

Both Hutchins and Sheridan said the activists' names were entered into the state police database as terrorists partly because the software offered limited options for classifying entries.

The police also entered the activists' names into the federal Washington-Baltimore High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area database, which tracks suspected terrorists. One well-known antiwar activist from Baltimore, Max Obuszewski, was singled out in the intelligence logs released by the ACLU, which described a "primary crime" of "terrorism-anti-government" and a "secondary crime" of "terrorism-anti-war protesters."

Sheridan said that he did not think the names were circulated to other agencies in the federal system and that they are not on the federal government's terrorist watch list. Hutchins said some names might have been shared with the National Security Agency.

Although the independent report on the surveillance released last week said that it was part of a broad effort by the state police to gather information on protest groups across the state, Sheridan said the department is not aware of any surveillance as "intrusive" as the spying on death penalty and war opponents.

The police notified the protesters at the recommendation of former U.S. attorney and state attorney general Stephen H. Sachs, who was appointed by Gov. Martin O'Malley (D) to review the covert monitoring. In a report last week, Sachs also recommended regulations that forbid such spying on protest groups unless the state police chief believes it is justified.

"I can't imagine getting a letter that says, 'You've been classified as a terrorist; come in and we'll tell about it,'" said Sen. Bryan W. Simonaire (R-Anne Arundel). Two senators noted that they had been arrested years ago for civil disobedience. Sen. Jennie Forehand (D-Montgomery) asked Sheridan, "Do you have any legislators on your list?" The answer was no.
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Md. Police Put Activists' Names On Terror Lists

Bernard, Oct 8, 2008 IP

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#16

browntwn said: ↑

Don't you find it a little ironic that you would complain about my post calling it a personal attack and yet do something very similar in yours pointing out my error?
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Retart!
...........

LogicFlux, Oct 8, 2008 IP

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