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Ireland votes "NO" to Lisbon Treaty

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by iul, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. #1
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4128055.ece

    What do you think? I'm happy about this result. I'm not a fan of the European Parliament
     
    iul, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  2. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #2
    guerilla, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  3. ChrisPhp

    ChrisPhp Active Member

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    #3
    Why is this great news? It is vital that the EU gets united and strong, so we can make a fist in a gloabalizing world. People still don't seem to realize that European countries won't be able to manage by themselves. They are simply to small compared to US, India, China, Russia, etc.
    I beleive Ireland received something like 60 billion Euros, and now they are against the EU?!
     
    ChrisPhp, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  4. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #4
    Because the Lisbon Treaty is basically another attempt at an EU Constitution, that has little to do with trade, and everything to do with overriding national laws, and creating law at the highest, unelected level, which in my opinion is not only anti-democratic, it's anti-liberty.

    The EU is already talking about fielding it's own army and so forth. This has the potential of legislating into existence, a super power, that has almost no checks and balances on it.
     
    guerilla, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  5. ChrisPhp

    ChrisPhp Active Member

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    #5
    It is not overriding national laws.
    At this moment everything decided by unanimous vote, wich takes a lot of time. Sometimes ideas won't pass, because one small country is against it.
    The member states wan't to change this to majority vote, wich is way more effective. We can decide faster and because of that we are more able to compete with the other major countries/regions.
    If we don't form an effective regional power, we will be passed by the other major countries. Don't think everything will stay as it is, just because it is going fine now.
     
    ChrisPhp, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  6. MattUK

    MattUK Notable Member

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    #6
    Why would this be a good thing? You cannot force culturally diverse people with dirrect languages into one polotical area and expect it to work out. History proves this.

    Why not? They've managed pretty well for the past few hundred years.
     
    MattUK, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  7. MattUK

    MattUK Notable Member

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    #7
    Yes it is
    http://www.ashleymote.co.uk/?p=777
    I only want people I elect to be able to impose laws on me, not someone in a different country. That's not democracy.
     
    MattUK, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  8. ChrisPhp

    ChrisPhp Active Member

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    #8
    The new treaty is not going to change anything about the way the people in the European parliament are chosen.

    Maybe the European countries have managed well the last few hundred years. But, there wasn't anything like Russia, India, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Brazil, Venezuela, etc. Those countries are big powers on the rise. It is plain foolish to believe the European countries can compete with them without any proper coalition.

    You said history showed this wrong. When/what exactly?
     
    ChrisPhp, Jun 13, 2008 IP
  9. MattUK

    MattUK Notable Member

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    #9
    No, but the Lisbon treaty removes some of the vetos that our elected goverment have over the unelected one in Europe, creation of an unelected president and an unelected representitive for foreign affairs.

    Seriosly, look at a list of the top world economies, 5/10 are independent European countries, most on your list don't even figure. If anything banding together with developing easten bloc countries will act as an handicap.
    Besides, nobody is questioning the logic of acting as a trading bloc, you don't need a president or a constitution to do that though.

    Take just about any country that has been artificially forced together that contains ethnically diverse people, languages, customs, history and national identity and you'll see that it usually ends in breakup or worse bloodshed, Sri-Lanka, India and the break with Pakistan, Northern Ireland, The Balkans, The Kurds, Chechneya, Darfur, East Timor, ETA in Spain, Nepal and Israel. Forcing together two or more groups of people that don't want to be forced together never works in the long-run.

    The EU realises that the majority of people in Europe don't want this move, proved by their reluctance to have referendums and the no vote in Ireland.
     
    MattUK, Jun 13, 2008 IP
    guerilla likes this.
  10. MattUK

    MattUK Notable Member

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    #10
    Seriously, I'd have no problem with RAF scrambling a load of bombers and flattening Brussels.

    Watching them last night on Newsnight and the News was sickening. Talking about "Finding ways" to work with the "NO" vote, and how the "machinery of government" needed the reforms.

    What don't they understand? EVERY COUNTRY ASKED if they wanted to sign the Constitution/Treaty has said NO. No-one wants to sign over more and more power to entirely unelected and unaccountable officials, yet on 5live they had guests talking about it, and one bloke from the EU actually said it was the `wrong` result!!. the arrogance astounds...

    Who the hell is Barroso to ignore the Irish, French and Dutch electorates? No-one voted for him, and he assumes he has a right to run Europe.

    A long time ago i stopped getting angry at politics, because really there's nothing you can do about it any more. But this has totally reignited my passion.

    That spokeswoman last night, smug in her office, talking about the EU needing reforms and needed new powers should learn to shut the hell up. No political body NEEDS anything. If they want something they should ask the electorate for it, and if they get told no then that should be it.

    I'm so f**king angry, they're just central European empire builders
     
    MattUK, Jun 14, 2008 IP
  11. korr

    korr Peon

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    #11
    Ding ding ding ding - winner

    Europe isn't broken, many of its states are seriously rivaling (and passing) the U.S. in PPP per capita, HDI rankings, and national savings. Ironically, its under a largely de-centralized federal system like the U.S. used to use when it was on its way up.

    Centralizing more power in Brussels will be good for one thing only: militarization and fostering social homogeny.
     
    korr, Jun 14, 2008 IP
  12. zangief

    zangief Well-Known Member

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    #12
    Irish Blood :)

     
    zangief, Jun 14, 2008 IP
  13. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #13
    It's good you are passionate, because they would have gotten it to pass in Ireland, if not for passionate people who pushed back.

    Tell everyone you know, how you feel. Encourage them to do the same.

    You're meant to feel powerless, so they can slowly rob you of your freedom, your culture and your sovereignty.

    Only you can fight for you.

    I wish more people would wake up to the reality that more government is usually a bad thing. Power serves power, not people, and it cannot be controlled or easily contained.
     
    guerilla, Jun 14, 2008 IP
  14. iul

    iul Well-Known Member

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    #14
    I love the way they claim it's going to be "more democratic". But how the hell is the EU going to be more democratic if they ignore what people have to say in their country. I mean if the french people, for example, couldn't make their voice heard within their own country how are they going to make it heard in this new collosus that is forming? And how are we, the ones from the small countries, get to say anything about what we want?
     
    iul, Jun 14, 2008 IP
  15. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #15
    Like I said, power serves power.

    Your voluntary participation is not necessary. That's how the state (and the super state) works.
     
    guerilla, Jun 14, 2008 IP