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Is America heading for civil war?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by bigdoug, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. yo-yo

    yo-yo Well-Known Member

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    #41
    debunked, stopping illegal immigration or not isn't the only issue...

    Another major problem is what to do with the millions of illegals we already have here?
     
    yo-yo, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  2. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #42
    I try to make it a point never to argue with debunked. I don't want to be run over by the VW Bus of Common Sense. :D

    However, here I go out on a limb to stand up for what I believe in...

    I believe that the only difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration is a bunch of laws.

    To switch to Latin for a moment, it is malum juris, not malum per se. Some things just make more sense in Latin.

    It's a Heinlein day in my signature, so I will quote R.A.H. "No intelligent man has any respect for an unjust law. He simply follows the eleventh commandment." (Don't get caught.)

    I believe that people of all nations should be able to "vote with their feet" as long as they do not trespass on private property. I do not believe than any public assistance should be given to these people, or to any people.

    I do not believe that I have any more rights than anyone else just because my ancestors got here first. I believe that I should have to compete for my sustenance just like any other animal.

    On another note, can you imagine what would happen to the already terrifying U.S. trade deficit if we destroyed our base of cost-efficient labor?
     
    Will.Spencer, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  3. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #43
    For the most part I agree with you on this Will, except that there needs to be rules in place to filter out those we really don't need to be let in the USA, such as buddies of Bin Laden, known mexican criminals, etc... besides that I agree that none of us can claim the land and not let other in. I also think there should be some limits on how many people can move here in a year to keep things from just being flooded and out of control.

    another thought is too take over mexico and Canada and open up the borders that way.... LOL
     
    debunked, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  4. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #44
    I'll tackle the easiest point first. :)

    "Known Mexican criminals" fall into two categories:

    1. Fugitives
    2. Ex-cons

    When we find a fugitive from justice, we send him back to justice. We do this whether he is a native or an immigrant.

    An ex-con, on the other hand, is considered to have paid his debt to society. He is now free to attempt to reform himself and lead a law-abiding existence.


    I am not opposed to border checkpoints. They can be useful to stop undesirable aliens, such as Osama bin Laden's happy little band of Thirteenth Century warlords.


    I believe that the best policy for controlling the flow of immigrants is to control the flow of social services. If immigrants take care of themselves, the number of immigrants is irrelevant. Heck, we might just call them "tourists." If immgrants are forced to take care of themselves, only the number of immigrants who can succeed in the economy will arrive and stay. The rest will, due to the natural balances of supply and demand, choose to stay home.

    Joblessness is the natural predator of immigrants. If the number of immigrants exceeds the number of jobs, immigration will cease. There is no use travelling thousands of miles to stand around jobless, you can do that at home.

    Our social welfare state has interfered with the natural operation of the economic system. Immigrants can now come to America, illegally, and receive benefits which make their life here better than their lives at home. This motivates a quite unnatural and unhealthy migration.

    Worse, it causes our country to attract the worst type of immigrants. Now, we are no longer attracting immigrants who wish to come to this country and work to build a better future for themselves and their families -- we are attracting immigrants who want to come here to collect benefits and live off of the taxpayers!

    The government creates a problem, and the solution they imagine for that problem is more government! No no no no no. The solution is less government. The solution is to get rid of the original problem by getting rid of the stupid government idea that created the problem. The solution is not to add even more government intervention to try to ameliorate the problems created by the previous rounds of government interventions.

    I'm not really arguing with anyone, I'm just on my soap box now. :D
     
    Will.Spencer, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  5. Cyrus255

    Cyrus255 Well-Known Member

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    #45
    I'm not sure if anyone even realizes this, but...

    These marches did not start because of the Sensenbrenner bill but because of the Aztlan Reconquista Plan

    A group who plans to retake the southwest USA through brutal ethnic cleansing. For instance, many of the banners at the march had flag banners of beheaded white people

    Last year during the french riots Voz de Aztlan leader Ernesto Cienfuegos said we would see the same thing in the USA by latino's, except america's would make france's look "peaceful"


    And you know, I always wondered what our 800 empty prison camps, fully staffed and guarded, were going to be used for! Two years later this starts to happen... awfully similar to the 80's plan that came out during Iran Contra, CoG (Continuity of Government)...

    You know, scarily enough it was written by two relatively unfamous at the time persons. Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield.


    Oh and btw I'm conservative, I just daresay Bush is not conservative. Homeland Security is big government, and conservatism is all about small government, and LESS SPENDING.
     
    Cyrus255, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  6. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #46
    Let's make bets on the outcome of that.

    My money is on the U.S. Army. Do you want to bet on the Aztlan Reconquista team? I'll give you ten to one odds. :D

    Seriously, the U.S. is in no danger from an invasion of gardeners and fruit-pickers.
     
    Will.Spencer, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  7. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #47
    Now this would make more sense. But, is this just not in the news or just not the reality?

    I have heard about this movement (don't know the name) but this thought has been moving for years now. In reality, Mexico has taken back most of southern california already, they just need to make it official and they know if they do they will get the rears kicked back to mexico.

    If Mexico took back California, the economy of california would be destroyed quite quickly due to the stinkin thinkin of the mexican gov't and the gangster mentality.
     
    debunked, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  8. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #48
    Totally with you on the welfare, hand out thing. I think that the american welfare recipients are the ones most worried about their bankrupt programs.
     
    debunked, Mar 31, 2006 IP
  9. Blitz

    Blitz Well-Known Member

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    #49
    Ignorance...

    We have a huge illegal problem.
    Not many stand around petrol stations, why would they? They hang around in gangs at the market where they can properly pictpocket.
    Loads drive illegally and can't drive, there's been countless times they've killed children and driven off, then went back home.
    Hospitals and emergency rooms? This is the main reason they prefer the UK because the NHS provides them with free health care.
    Illegal kids crowding the schools? My parents moved out of a highly urban area because my little sister was in charge of teaching 3 kids how to speak English... some schools have over 40 different languages spoken by pupils, with mothertongue English students being the minority.

    I'm not saying we have a bigger, or less of a problem (to be honest, noone knows how many illegals we have, there's no way to properly estimate it, same with you), but there's definitely a lot of similarities.
     
    Blitz, Apr 1, 2006 IP
  10. latehorn

    latehorn Guest

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    #50
    Although, these immigrants are neccessary in Europe to counterbalance the low birthrates. These illegal immigrants fill a space and pumps up the birth rate themselves. The birth rate would probably be 8/1,000 population or 9/1,000 population without the immigrants, but now they are 10,5/1,000 population which is still extremely low.

    A healthy birth-rate is somewhere between 15/1,000 population and 20/1,000 population.
     
    latehorn, Apr 1, 2006 IP
  11. Blitz

    Blitz Well-Known Member

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    #51
    I disagree.

    1950 - 2 billion
    2000 - 6 billion

    http://www.prb.org/images/e-01(world_pop_growth).gif

    Why would we need more people? Also, all developed countries have much lower birth rates, all the top birthrate countries are undeveloped.
     
    Blitz, Apr 1, 2006 IP
  12. Cyrus255

    Cyrus255 Well-Known Member

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    #52

    Just not in the news. Or COMPLETELY mis-represented.

    Now, I've NEVER been taken a conspiracy seriously before. But this is just far too staged for me.
    For instance, I live in Texas. We had protests in Austin, Texas. The mexicans started marching claiming Texas belonged to Mexico.
    Groups like La Raza, which means "the race" are sponsoring these marches. It's like our own little Latino KKK.

    You don't hear the truth anymore. Like over 200 acts of violence against border agents. Or 600 murders, usually around the border, but as far north as Tennesse by the group "Zetas" which is a group of elite paramilitary drug trafficking commandos from Mexico.

    They've been in Dallas, near where I live, for the past 2 years wreaking havoc among us.

    We were only an inch from possible war, or breakdown, a few months back when they had a mexican military humvee with a mounted .50caliber machine gun pointed at local sheriffs along the border.

    When the sheriffs called border agents to assist them they said "If you want to get your ass shot over a load of dope, that's your problem, we're not coming."

    You don't remember the 60's do you? The Black Riots nearly caused a massive police state of martial law back then.

    And there were only 100,000 blacks rioting. We've already seen 500,000 latino's in LA. I saw over 50,000 in small little Austin.

    As Mr. Cienfugos, leader of Aztlan said, these will make the French riots look peaceful.

    I don't fear Mexican groups like Aztlan succeeding. What I do fear is the installment of a police state in order to combat this group.

    There are over 300,000 names on our "suspected terrorist list" and it's not all arabs. It's possible political dissidents.

    Funny thing is Britain had a list of 120,000 names (that would be like 600,000 in USA proportionately) of "suspected terrorists" that they rounded up without charges after the London bombings.


    Just to give you some insight into what's REALLY going on. :D
     
    Cyrus255, Apr 1, 2006 IP
    jackburton2006 likes this.
  13. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #53
    All the protesters here in southern Oregon are complaining about the jobs and is definitely a race thing to them, stating "whites dont want the jobs we do", etc.. Nothing seems like it has anything to do with Aztlan or others here.

    Kids skipping school to stand up for ILLEGALS is just plain silly.
     
    debunked, Apr 1, 2006 IP
  14. latehorn

    latehorn Guest

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    #54
    Yeah, 4 more billion in Africa, Middle East, Asia, Latin/South America.
    I never said that developing countries had a good birth rate but they are atleast developing.

    In 1850 more than a 1/4 of the world population was from Europe. Today we are not even a 1/10. Soon it will be 1/20, then 1/50, then 1/1000 and in the future, we're just a fart in the air. See the problem here?
     
    latehorn, Apr 1, 2006 IP
  15. mopacfan

    mopacfan Peon

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    #55
    Exactly what does it say? :confused:
     
    mopacfan, Apr 5, 2006 IP
  16. Mr Crow

    Mr Crow Peon

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    #56
    Do some checking on this one ... but florida and texas congress has already voted that they retain the right to succeed from the union due to the fed government poor spending and management ... they have it there and have notified the feds that they retain the right to put this into effect as they see fit .. it will take some digging but you can find it in their laws
     
    Mr Crow, Apr 5, 2006 IP
  17. jackburton2006

    jackburton2006 Peon

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    #57
    I've lived in Houston all my life and I really have no problems with the illegal immigration. All the illegals I've known have been pretty great people, not to mention insanely hard working. (The kids, now, are another matter; but then again, aren't all kids punks, regardless of race?) Even so, I do get a little "tweaked", shall we say, when I see high school kids protesting in Houston waving the Mexican flag. Nothing against Mexico or their flag, but if you're citizens of this country, or want to become citizens of this country, and you're fighting for the rights to stay here, why do you flaunt the flag of the country you've fled? I just don't understand it, but maybe that's me...
     
    jackburton2006, Apr 5, 2006 IP
  18. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #58
    Years ago, families would immigrate to America and they would be proud to be Americans.

    That is much harder these days, with the liberal MSM constantly denigrating America and American values.

    So, these kids seek some other identity to be proud of and they often settle on their Latino heritage.

    It's a real pickle. The Liberals are screaming "Everywhere on Earth is better than America! America sucks! Everywhere else has nationalized health care! Everywhere else has gun control! Everywhere else has guaranteed employment! Everywhere is is more cool! The white man is keeping you down!"

    We can't really shut these people up; we may just have to wait for their generation to die.

    Ronald Reagan wrote about this in his farewell speech:
     
    Will.Spencer, Apr 5, 2006 IP
  19. Cyrus255

    Cyrus255 Well-Known Member

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    #59
    Funny thing is, people who should be for rounding up illegals and sending them back to Mexico is....

    Mexico!

    Mexico has a worse economy than Chile, Brazil, even Columbia!

    The reason? Instead of improving their own country, they abandon it and leech off ours.

    And I mean leech.

    Congress' chief budget adviser said last month that more than $519 billion in wages has been paid out to illegals using fake Social Security cards
     
    Cyrus255, Apr 6, 2006 IP
  20. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #60
    Great comment, but again my question is illegal vs. legal - wouldn't you rather have them come through a proper (albiet more open) channel of legal status?

    I agree with the flag comment, I also don't see anything wrong with making english lessons/classes mandatory for immigrants to help them communicate better with everyone for their own benefit.

    Friends of mine had the opposite problems when they came to the states, their parents forced them to speak english only and they barely know their native language, which is a bummer. Nothing wrong with speaking 2 or 3 languages, but if you want to move to an English speaking country learn English for pete's sake.
     
    debunked, Apr 6, 2006 IP