Do all freelancers SUCK? I need a PHP/MYSQL coder

i see...so if i say north america..which is that? mexican, german, french, african or irish...because all reside in various parts of the NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT

well i wont even get into the fact that india has a caste system and not a "racial" system

but for the benefit of this thread...know that the NATION of INDIA...is not considered all one culture of people.

Just like here in the USA

but only bigots try to turn everything into a race issue.

I bet you have a hood in your closet...no?

 

I'm still curious about one main thing. This is an internet site....well it was the last time i checked...and one of the main benefits of posting on an internet site is that you get people from all over the world.

Now allot of people go to the internet from other countries to find jobs because they can make more off of one job then they could in an office in there country for a week.

So my question is simply this, why does it matter so much to you that you pay the same rate for the same thing to a person based on there countries economy? If the job is done and the job is done right and the way you want it don't you think that it is worth the same amount no matter where the programmer is from?

Oh yea and one other thing, in your reply on the first page when you where giving examples of how a foreigner and an american would reply to a post. I normally reply to posts using what you said the foreigner would, but I was born and raised in the states. Maybe its just a simple matter of when you conducting business you should be business like and use proper english and leave the slang and familiarity at the door.

I'm not trying to attack you are your beliefs in any way, I'm just curious why you think some people are worth less then others just because the live somewhere else.

 

haha... first of all India IS NOT a continent, North America IS!

Secondly, comparing the racial or "nationality" diversity of the United States to India is pretty absurd.

Secondly, buddy. Sorry, but I don't have a hood in my closet... My father is from Nigeria and my mother is from France... and I grew up in USA.

The real problem is that ignorant people say IGNORANT things! If you'd like to retract your comment you should do so at any time!

OUT

 

at what point did i say india is a continent?

you just can't read can you?

so which side is the racist, the nigerian or the french?

 

So all outsourcing to India is done, because you find the better programmers there? Having phone support from India for us/en products is because they have such good language and a strong technical background?

 

The point is you can't compare a "Nation" to a Continent... how about just country to country. In which case I stated was an "absurd" comparison.

I guess I'm not sure which is racist, my (black) Nigerian father or my (White) French mother! hahaha

You just getting burned by everyone right now. This thread is about to blow up come daytime tomorrow! hahaha

 

finally and intelligent person...you at least took the time to read.

SO I am happy to clarify.

there is a "conversational" nature that we often take in the usa...people who speak english as a non-native tongue...attempt it, but mess it up.

but even when they speak "proper" english...it comes out as akward..this is because a BOOK cannot teach you conversation

just like spanish people often laugh at americans attempting to speak spanish, because they read a phrase or two...we sound ridiculous to them

I was pointing this out.

also, at no point did i say a person was WORTH less as an individual..that is absurd..all human life is equal to me...our worth as people is beyond any monetary value...how much would you be paid to have your eyeballs removed? for me...no amount...in the same way, if i was responsible for causing someone to lose an eye, there is no amount I can pay to "repay" that loss.

But thats a different topic

I say the WORTH of a WORKER (ie the performance of a task for hire) is based IN PART (not solely) on their geographic location.

people act like this is a foriegn concept i just somehow pulled out of the air

Truth is, this is what stemmed the whole outsourcing debate here in the USA...people were mad that companies were FIRING AMERICANS to hire people WHO DID THE JOB JUST AS WELL in another country...but it was CHEAPER.

why doesn't the US outsource to Britian? lol...why, because we would pay TWICE AS MUCH..and that doesnt make economic sense.

If it costs someone $50 to live for a week, and it costs you $500 to live for a week...why would you pay them $800 instead of $80?

Thats what happened to me...several indian companies (who i wont name) tried to charge me MORE than what i could hire someone here for...when I called them on it, they laughed.

and then I had a friend of mine, an indian contact them..and guess what...they gave them a DIFFERNT PRICE

so if you guys want to attack anyone, attack them for charging me extra just because i live in the USA.

and I see this whole thing was my fault, for expecting people to actually have some sort of monetary or business sense, and not try to turn it into something much more shallow...like race.

This was strictly about economics and work ethics...and those that have never run anything but thier mouths have taken pleasure in dragging this into to the gutter

shame on me for participating

but with that...im done.

post whatever else you like...but im moving on to more intelligent conversations.

 

mods i started this thread, and it was for the purpose of hiring someone..i found them

please close this thread...its totally off-topic and unnecessary at this point.

 

I am interested in the offer. If looking for experienced programmers in PHP now and in future email me to contacts@real-it.eu We already have been working with an american based company from Las Vegas for 8 months. For references, check of our work and discussion on building working relationships please email me. Thanks

 

I think this has got a bit out of hand. I think this thread should be moved to another sub board for continued flaming and BusinessCoach can re-start a clean 'Hire' thread stating what he wants and get people hired for his job.

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on the note of the on going flame. I agree with the fluent english side. If I hire someone I want to able to say :

"The customer wants the site to have depth and it has to be professional and sleek bla bla bla" and have the designer understand what I'm babling on about.

It's difficult to do that with non-native english speakers...not just indians but anyone who is not anglo or bought up in an anglo country (UKians,USians,Aussies, British/american Born Paks/Indians etc)

 

2) Technically based, not culturally based - when someone wants work done, they have to SPECIFY EACH AND EVERY STEP...if not, it wont get done. The reality is, a person should be able to say "I would like a login system"...and its UNDERSTOOD this includes registration with email verification, lost password retrieval, and duplicate user prevention. Again, goes back to knowing a language versus knowing a culture.

In america we encourage self sufficiency, we encourage initiative, we like people who go the extra mile....In india, its obviously different, because an Indian programmer does exactly what they are told to do, no more and no less.


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I agree, I am managing 7 project and it is driving me crazy that I need to specify every last step.

After these projects are finished, I will bring my development back on-shore.

 

Well, since this thread never was closed, I'm going to add my own two cents to the discussion.

BusinessCoach--KUDOs to you for having the courage to call a spade a spade (that's metaphorical, not racial for those of you so quick to play the race card...hmmm another metaphor; but I digress), and call the offshore programmers on their "stuff." And my, how the attitudes of the Indian programmers have changed in four short years. Back when we here in the US were mad as hell that we were getting laid off from our computer programming jobs because it was being handed to an Indian programmer who would do the same job for 1/10 the price. All the Indians who I read their comments on the topic were pragmatic about it and stated something to the effect that "that's the way the ball bounces," "it is was it is," and "why don't you go read the book 'Who Moved My Cheese' and get over it already?" (I know, I'm really pushing the definition of paraphrasing here), If you'd like to read the article that was published in Wired Magazine back in 2004, some of you who were earlier bashing in BusinessCoach's skull for his position on this issue, might be able to see things in a different light. The link is http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india.html.

From a business perspective what BusinessCoach says makes perfect sense. We capitalists embrace the free market global economy. Now if you are a communist aka "socialist" or whatever label you want to give yourself to avoid a negative stigma, I can see why you might lobby for "equal wages for all peoples everywhere" even though they can live quite well on 1/5 the amount we can.

I do know what I'm talking about here; my brother-in-law lived in India for two years as a project manager and we had many lengthy conversations about his experiences, cost of living, etc. (and to further bolster BusinessCoach's position, we could certainly discuss why it was even necessary for an American who was paid five times more than an Indian to do his job, to go to India to manage several software and IT projects instead of an Indian national managing those projects--think about it and I'm sure the picture will eventually come into focus).

BusinessCoach, it was really not necessary for you to defend your position against the onslaught of ignorance expressed in this thread. You made your point quite clearly in your first post on this thread, and those who disagree should have spent more time figuring out what it is about them and their culture that caused you to feel the way you do than they did trying to convince you to change your point of view to agree with their indefensible position.

To all dissenters - say what you want to say, rep me good or bad, it won't affect me either way. I will not respond to your comments so waste your time responding only if you really feel the need to vent your spleen (again). That's all.

 

People, it is based on the exchange rates. Everything you buy. EVERYTHING is calculated by:

1. Supply and demand
2. Exchange rate - No, our moneys are not equal!
3. Cost of living
4. Cost of doing business
5. Overtime hours

Argue that, and you are a fool indeed. If you do not believe this, then you are not meant for business.

As far as Indian coders having better work ethic than Americans, I have about 300 customers I can put you in touch with who disagree and hired me to fix Indian code or rewrite them. No offense to Indians. As does America, India has scam artist and it has geniuses. Unfortunately the scam artists out number the good businessmen.

Now all of you stop getting all racially upset when someone mentions your country in a way you don't like. Like you don't bash the other country in front of your friends. All I see are a bunch of hypocrites, ignorants, and racists here.

I pay for performance. If I hire a foreign coder, I pay him as I would an American. I convert the USD to his/her currency. That is how the global economy works people. Except big business outsources and offers based on the cost of living in said country and not in the USA. Why? Because America costs a lot more than most countries.

This thread showed which of you are psychotic, let me say.