1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

need help in dmoz

Discussion in 'ODP / DMOZ' started by windy, Aug 2, 2005.

  1. ishfish

    ishfish Peon

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    28
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #21
    Is the total submission pool getting larger or smaller? (Hint for those unable to check, it doesn't start with a 's'.)

    It seems to me to be pretty obvious that if this pool is continually getting larger, there will be some sites that don't get reviewed. Unless the ODP shuts off submissions, or webmasters stop submitting their sites, I think the submissions will continue to grow. And as the number of editors available to review the submissions has decreased, it has increased the burden on the editors that remain to process these submissions. So unless something is either done about the number of submissions (decrease them significantly somehow), or the number of editors (increase them somehow), there will be sites that ODP editors do not review.
     
    ishfish, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  2. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

    Messages:
    11,324
    Likes Received:
    615
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    310
    #22
    It gives an illusion that everything is honest. The way things are just now, you can be an editor and login from your home computer, then you can go to an Internet café and suggest a site from their computer and as editor you can approve it. Different IP (location) for editor and submitter, so no abuse. ;) :D
     
    gworld, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  3. shadow575

    shadow575 Peon

    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    38
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #23
    I am of the opinion that suggestions can in many cases help the editors who want to use them find many quality sites more quickly. I for one tend to utilize them frequently depending on which area I have chosen to work in at the time. Webmasters are not the only ones who suggest sites, many site visitors suggest sites as well.

    One man's "Yada, yada, yada..." is another's hobby and enjoyment ;)
    I am fairly certain that there are some editors that would agree with you about discontinuing suggestions. I for one sometimes find value in them so discontinuing them wouldn't be good in my eyes.
     
    shadow575, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  4. pagode

    pagode Guest

    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    47
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #24
    I see that even on DP there is some moderation going on. What does one have to do to get 'banned'. (not that I want to do such a thing)
     
    pagode, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  5. shadow575

    shadow575 Peon

    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    38
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #25
    Must be something pretty awful-I haven't seen it here at all? Multiple personalities maybe?
     
    shadow575, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  6. mustangsally

    mustangsally Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    21
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    125
    #26
    dmoz is completely corrupt. I know 3 friends personally ( as in real life ) who are dmoz editors and just sell listings all day, and extort the current people listed if they want to keep there listings.

    It completely sucks, the entire way the dmoz is structured- For new webmasters dmoz is a huge key to getting started, the pagerank, the massive amounts of sites that pull the data, etc. etc. I myself had no problems getting listed, just had my friends do it, but I could understand how bad it would be for people who were not listed.

    I have considered showing how completely horrible the dmoz is via a trial and error blog, but havent got around to it. The idea is to create a blog which you journal your steps of a) trying to become a editor, and b) trying to submit a site. The blog proabably wouldnt work though, because the dmoz takes what.. 10 months? to aprove a listing now?

    I think there is some serious cash to be made if someone started up a "elance" style dmoz corruption site. At least it would all be out in the open then, not like now where dmoz editors act like its legit when its so obviously corrupt. I wouldnt be surprised if some cat mods / metas made enough money with bribes / blackmail to not have to work.
     
    mustangsally, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  7. lmocr

    lmocr Peon

    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    85
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #27
    You know three people who say they are taking bribes and you're going to report it right? Otherwise you are either blowing smoke or are supporting the corruption. That's all any reasonable person would assume.

    The report abuse link is http://report-abuse.dmoz.org/
     
    lmocr, Feb 8, 2006 IP
    kentricho likes this.
  8. bradley

    bradley Peon

    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    23
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #28
    In my experience, sites in the middle of a list sorted by date have a tendency to be more worth reviewing than the ones at the old end (when inheriting a new category with a large, old backlog these sites are often long-gone) or the ones at the new end (which are often submissions made before the site has any content on it at all, made by 'submit and forget' people who forgot to wait until they were in a position to submit in the first place! - and with the submission pools getting bigger as many here have said, that tends to be fairly unforgivable - a premature submission like that is more likely to get deleted rather than sent back to the pool just in case it adds content later on).

    I don't even know how my pool is sorted, come to think of it. I usually scan down and 'cherry pick' the ones with guideline-correct titles and descriptions, and then go back up, then back down again, etc etc... the bad ones comes last that way. the ones people put a bit of attention into get looked at first. Seems fair to let me review sites according to merit, but hey, what do I know, It's probably just like that (giving us the option of sorting it like that) because we're all corrupt, right gworld?
     
    bradley, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  9. BamaStangGuy

    BamaStangGuy Notable Member

    Messages:
    955
    Likes Received:
    51
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    245
    #29
    I submitted my Ford Mustang site over 1 year ago and it has yet to be accepted.

    They don't care about adding useful sites to their directory of "useful sites" in any kind of timely matter.

    They claim to work for the regular users of dmoz yet they do not make an effort to show the regular user all the useful sites out there in any kind of timely matter.
     
    BamaStangGuy, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  10. BamaStangGuy

    BamaStangGuy Notable Member

    Messages:
    955
    Likes Received:
    51
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    245
    #30

    I just want to know why no one in my category gives a damn about adding useful sites? What the hell is the point of that person being the editor of that category if he is not editing? Put someone who wants to be in there in their spot.

    Is it really that complicated?
     
    BamaStangGuy, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  11. bradley

    bradley Peon

    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    23
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #31
    Please take the time to read this thread properly, no matter how much you want to get that whine off your chest - it's been said loads of times before - the suggestion feature (not submission, i think we should work on eradicating that word entirely, it gives a false impression) is just another tool at the editor's disposition for finding sites to list. There's absolutely no requirement that he use it instead of other ways of finding sites, and you really shouldn't be getting upset at him/her for not doing so.
     
    bradley, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  12. BamaStangGuy

    BamaStangGuy Notable Member

    Messages:
    955
    Likes Received:
    51
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    245
    #32
    :confused: How can he not find my site in other ways other than submissions then?

    All he has to do is type Ford Mustang into MSN and I am the second choice?

    Ford Mustang Forums into Yahoo and bam there I am.

    If I wanted to find useful Ford Mustang websites I would do research. If this person in charge of the Ford Mustang category would do such a thing it would not be hard at all to find my site among other sites that are not listed in there.

    Why feed me BS like that? Are you telling me that if you were looking for Ford Mustang websites you could not find mine? :confused:

    I am well aware that submissions are not the only way to find sites. To tell me this person could not find mine any other way is complete bullshit. The fact is they are not adding new sites period.

    If your editors would actually edit you would not see me in here. I'm not apologizing for "whining" because I feel like editors and DMOZ fanboys keep feeding me bullshit.

    Define the purpose of DMOZ and tell me how not adding any useful websites in over a year to a directory is useful to anyone? In 1 year many useful websites can be created. How the hell is this useful to someone wanting to find Ford Mustang information if these websites are not listed? How can you say you are working for the end user that is wanting information?
     
    BamaStangGuy, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  13. pagode

    pagode Guest

    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    47
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #33
    There are so many possibilities why your (or any other) website is not inlcuded yet or why a specific category is not updated for some time.

    DMOZ has about 600,000 categories and at this moment about 8,000 editors. If all of these editors would be equaliy active (and we know they aren't) each would have to look at 75 categories. If each of these editors would look at 1 category each day a category would be looked at every 1 weeks. But there is only a certain amount of suggested sites an editor can look at each day. So your site might not be looked at the first time an editor is visiting the category. Wait 10 more weeks.

    As the above is based on assumptions we know are not true your 'waiting' time might be much longer. Or much shorter. DMOZ editor's don't know when a suggested site will be looked at. And to be honest we don't care. Our task is to build the directory as a whole. If some categories do not grow during some period that is OK for DMOZ. Probably no editor was interested in that category during that time. And more importantly there were also no other persons that were interested enough to take care of the category (they might be interested in listing their own site nut that is a very bad reason to become an editor).
     
    pagode, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  14. BamaStangGuy

    BamaStangGuy Notable Member

    Messages:
    955
    Likes Received:
    51
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    245
    #34
    I am confused as to why you do not care?

    Please, someone define me the goal of DMOZ. That is all I ask. Then tell me how you are working to achieve this goal.

    By the way, if you are hurting for editors like you sound like you are then why turn them down left and right or try to make them do bitch work they ARE NOT INTERESTED IN?

    For example I just spent 20 minutes filling out an application for the Ford Mustang directory, a directory that has not been updated in over a year. I was turned down almost immidiately. There was no way this "Senior Editor" could have checked the many refrences I gave him. So what is the point of this?

    Then the asshole has the nerve to tell me to spend another 20 minutes filling out the same application for another category that shows NO interest to me what so ever.

    Your comment about not caring is exactly why this forum contains 90% of the hate threads it does. If you started caring maybe things would run smoother? If you added editors to categories that they are actually interested in maybe this would help DMOZ?

    I fail to see why you people make this so complicated. I am plenty qualified to edit the Ford Mustang directory and my refrences with sites such as Big-Boards.com, which I do interviews for, would prove it if your senior editors actually gave a damn about wanting to improve DMOZ

    Thats my opinion on it and I am not alone by far. Tired of hearing this? Start caring then
     
    BamaStangGuy, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  15. lmocr

    lmocr Peon

    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    85
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #35
    The Ford Mustang category has 173 listings currently - that is much too big to start out in. Typically, it's recommended that you start out in a category that has less than 100 sites (preferrably closer to 20) and where you can find another dozen or so sites to build the category. If your motives are to build the directory and not just list your own site, surely there are other areas of your life that interest you. The town you live in, your major in school, a hobby (knitting, reading, sewing, model cars, whatever), your favorite breed of dog. If you decide you still like editing after you've built up a small category or two, there's no reason you can't apply for the Ford Mustang category after that.

    But - it's your choice.
     
    lmocr, Feb 8, 2006 IP
  16. pagode

    pagode Guest

    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    47
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #36
    Goal: to build the directory (in 2005 the net growth was around 200,000 sites see http://research.dmoz.org/publish/chris2001/odp_reports/report_2005.htm )
    How: by listing sites. We have several ways to find these sites. One of them are the sites that are suggested, but there are many more ways to find sites (local newspaper, billboards, specialised directories) and most of them are much more usefull than the suggested sites.

    What DMOZ is not: a way for webmasters to promote their site
     
    pagode, Feb 9, 2006 IP
  17. shadow575

    shadow575 Peon

    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    38
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #37
    I think a Mustang forum should have a thread for fuzzy dice enthusiasts - You don't care :) (The editors also do not care when other editors will want to volunteer to work on any particular category)

    Sorry you feel that way. The directory isn't hurting for editors to the point of accepting just anybody. The directory however always needs editors who show a promise of becoming good editors. New edtiors are never going to be given large categories that they can really screw-up, rather they are going to start small so any errors can easily be rectified and also explained to help them learn.

    I like to consider myself to have a very long fuse, but I will be honest this makes me angry. An editor took the time to tell you (presumably) that they would like you to be an editor (which imo means that they thought you showed potential), but cannot give you the large category you applied too for obvious reasons. They then (by the sounds of it) made some suggestions to you to start with and you respond by calling them derogatory names for it? Probably best that the application was declined, imo.

    There are still going to be people who dislike the directory, no matter how it is setup. Disgruntled people who cannot get in, those that are trying to compete with it, etc will still be vocal about their dislike. And they are free to do so. By the same token, how the volunteers decide to run their project website is their own choice. If they don't agree with how it is going, they can try and change it. If they cant get a consensus then they either have to accept it or move on. They afterall are free to make that choice. Randomly throwing new editors into categories because they think they are experts or interested is not a good plan of action. There is way to much damage that could be caused. It is much better to let everyone start out small and work their way up.

    You very well may be an *expert* in your area of interest. That doesn't mean you are going to make a good editor. It could be that your self-titled expertise would jade your ability to be objective. Good editors can learn to be experts in their areas of interest. Experts in their area of interest sometimes cannot learn to be good editors. That is why we all start out in tiny old sub-categories and work our way up, to see where it leads us.
     
    shadow575, Feb 9, 2006 IP
  18. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    347
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #38
    huh, you think it's bitch work? Because you, personally are not interested in it? I'm sorry, but this is not the attitude of a good editor. I've logged over 50,000 edits in categories that I have no interest in... am I doing bitch work, or am I building a directory? I suppose it's all in the attitude.

    With all due respect, 20 minutes isn't very long. Until an editor is promoted to editall they must fill out the same application for each category they want to edit in. I've never done an application in less than an hour, it usually takes much longer. :confused:

    I don't believe the "asshole" told you to spend another 20 minutes filling out the same application. I believe you assumed it would take another 20 minutes and that editing for the ODP isn't worth it to you. That's fine, but it doesn't mean the meta who reviewed your application is an "asshole", and it doesn't mean working in categories we aren't interested in is "bitch work".

    The common interest for good editors is building the directory. All of it.
     
    compostannie, Feb 9, 2006 IP
    shadow575 likes this.
  19. sidjf

    sidjf Peon

    Messages:
    465
    Likes Received:
    49
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #39
    It is hugely more important to be good at editing than it is to be good at the topic you are editing. That is why you show what you can do by starting in a small category. It's also why your "many references" aren't that important.

    As far as I know, this has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the category you applied to, which was too large.
     
    sidjf, Feb 9, 2006 IP
  20. ishfish

    ishfish Peon

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    28
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #40
    I have a slightly different view than most (ex)editors I think. Instead of being highly selective in the initial application stage, I think ODP should be more generous in joining new editors. This creates a larger pool of potential editors that 'get it' and move on to becoming good editors. It also creates a larger pool or editors that don't 'get it' and move on to becoming poor or abusive editors. In my view, the potential advantages of a larger pool outweigh the disadvantages, especially if higher-level editors take an active role in advising and mentoring newer editors.

    In a directory of 5 million sites, what's the difference between a 150 site category and a 50 site category? Why the 150 site category is three times as big as the 50 site category of course. Or, it's 100 sites larger. If a new editor gets accepted to a 50 site category and messes it up, it creates a moderately sized mess. If a new editor gets accepted to a 150 site category and messes it up, it creates a moderately sided mess. It does not create a large mess. And even if this editor had somehow created a large mess, there are logs, and from those logs it's possible to revert the category to a previous state pretty easily. I don't know for certain that there is a tool to do this, but there should be, and it would be fairly straightforward to implement.

    Obviously there must be some flexible top limit to the size of an editor's first category. It would not be productive nor wise to have a new editor being listed at the top of the Regional branch. However, in assigning a value that is too low, potential good editors are being turned down, and asked to apply for a smaller category. This has several negative consequences. Firstly, being rejected is always going to result in feelings of inadequacy, resentment, and hatred. Nobody that I know of likes to be rejected. The more times a potential good editor is rejected for minor issues, the less chance s/he will apply again.

    Secondly, editors that don't fully understand the project will not reapply. By this I'm refering to editors that apply thinking that they will edit for a while to see if they like doing it, and if not, they'll quit. By rejecting their initial application, they may feel that their efforts are unneeded, and instead of reapplying, they find another hobby to fill their time.

    Thirdly, you'll have website owners who apply just to get their site listed be annoyed because they can't get their site listed. In my opinion, as long as webmasters add their sites with appropriate annotations, it is perfectly acceptable to have them join just to list their own sites. Again, as long as the sites they list are listable in that particular category, and they are listed with appropriate titles and descriptions, webmasters should be joined just so they can list their own sites. This does two things. One, there are less angry webmasters who want to get listed. Two, the directory grows with good sites. The potential downside is that these editors will be more abusive than others. This is a valid concern, but given the high percentage of abuse editors that are joined now, I don't think this would appreciably raise that percentage.

    There will always be categories that are too prone to abuse or spam submissions that a new editor should not be allowed to join there. These categories do not, for the most part, accept new applications. You must already be an editor to apply for them. There are a few that still need to have new applications turned off. And there will also always be applications where the applicant just doesn't have the necessary skills to be an editors. In both cases, rejection of the application is in order. I am not advocating a free-for-all where anyone who applies is accepted. I am just saying the bar should be lowered if it's going to be recommended that they apply again to a different category.

    So what am I advocating?
    • Join editors to categories with more sites in them instead of rejecting them and asking them to reapply.
    • Join webmasters in categories even if their sole purpose is to list their own site and it's felt the editor will list it with appropriate annotations.
    Yes, there are potential huge negative consequences of these proposals. But as I said in the first paragraph, I think there needs to be a more active mentoring/tutoring program. With a better tutoring program, more poor editors will become good editors, and more abusive editors will be found and removed. There is a program like this already, but it is only a voluntary program. It would be best if all new editors had to go through an internship procedure that would be able to weed good editors from bad editors from abusive editors.
     
    ishfish, Feb 9, 2006 IP