Ron Paul vs Judy Giulianni on 9/11

Ron Paul vs Judy Giuliani on 9/11
Sun, 11/18/2007 - 11:54 — Atheion

Interesting point Ron Paul makes here:

I agree.

 

Yes the beligerence of the USA and UK around the world is embarrassing

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAt6Pf7jZjA


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Is this the same types of quotes that some say he's 'tearing down America' or 'blaming it on America' ?

 

Watch the YouTube video I posted. Dr. Paul has reasoned, academic views that are endorsed by the intelligence community, specifically Michael Schuerer, who was the head of the CIA Bin Laden unit, and may be one of the handful of people in the West who understand OBL's motivations and thinking the best.

Rudy demagogued and the people roared their approval, but what they were cheering for in the debate, was ignorance about the facts.

Ironically, that moment really launched the Ron Paul campaign, and now Paul commands half of Rudy's lead in NH in the latest polls.

 

Good video, I've read articles, reports that say the same thing. It's sad that nobody can tackle the facts without being accused of 'blaming America'

If you are so blind that you can't look at facts, facts our own intelligence has said are facts, how do you ever expect to win a 'war on terror'?

 

Very good point Grim. For some reason, some people would rather not question the data they receive and accuse those that do question it as 'unpatriotic' or somehow 'crying about how America sucks'. That's like saying "don't question, just go along with whatever you're told. Be a sheep".

Lest one forget, dissension is what brought about the creation of the USA.

"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." - George Washington

 

I forget the name of the new bill they passed, HR 1955 is basically a thought crime bill.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955

Basically the internet is a breeding ground for terrorism, and Americans must not protest their government too loudly, or be labeled terrorists.

They'll pass anything to empower the government and restrict civil liberties.

The Constitution amongst government is just a remnant these days.

 

RP is right and he is not blaming America. He is simply a critical thinker and asking others to see what part we play. He just uses logic, intelligence, common sense and critical thinking.

His position is Jeffersonian:

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society." ~ Abraham Lincoln

I don't really care if people get tired of hearing that, it needs to be heard. I had another conversation with another "old Republican" the other night who parroted Limbaugh. The old "RP is unelectable" argument; he will just take away votes from "our side".

Frustrating to say the least that this guy thinks another Republican can beat the Dems with public opinion as it is. I think some conservatives are digging their own grave by not supporting Paul, not to mention the fact that if they had any idea what being a Republican/conservative was they would realize that Paul is the real deal.

 

I get the feeling some feel it's more of a hindrance to the power of a few people.

 

While at a casual business meeting over the weekend, the conversation turned to the middle east. I mentioned Ron Paul, and the only response was "That guy is crazy". A friendly debate followed where I explained the issues with the american foreign policy from Dr. Paul's view (citing some of his speeches, and some of the material on his website) and NOBODY would give me a reasoned rebuttal or could point to any hole in his logic, except to say "He is too idealistic, and his ideas would never work in the real world". I would like to know why not?

I have read a lot about Dr. Paul, and watched a lot of video on Youtube concerning him, and I find the same thing - everyone who disagrees with his ideas cannot give me a REAL reason WHY. Even in the threads on DP, those who disagree can't cite exact reasons that cannot be dismissed with fact.

 

I disagree. Scheuer is not the "intelligence community." As such, RP is not endorsed by the intelligence community. This is very, very misleading and in my opinion, borderline dishonest.

Scheuer is a darling of the left. He is very much anti-Israel, and is staunch RP supporter. It goes without saying that someone with such graces are going to be accepted by RP supporters with open arms. Especially his derogatory comments about Israel.

Here's a video of when he was on Bill Mahr. It's at about 4:20 into the video (after some other questionable comments), that RP supporters will really love him, and probably explain why there are so many anti-semites attached to the RP campaign.

I disagree with this notion that Americans are stupid or ignorant, because they do not agree with RP. Real Americans don't like politicians that blame America first. That is, exactly what RP did, it's what he continues to do to this very day. He even tried to blame America first for the recent violence in Pakistan. People cheered Rudy because RP was wrong. In subsequent debates, RP was nearly booed off the stage twice. That ought to say something to his supporters.

I disagree. That moment sealed any chance of a nomination away in a vault for good. While you see it as a reason why RP has half of Rudy's lead in NH, the reality of it is, Rudy and Romney and especially Huckabee are absolutely demolishing RP (as most candidates are) in every poll, including NH.

In fact, that moment was so far from launching his campaign (remember, there are only so many "troofers" out there, which was the core base of his support, until the neo-nazis started filtering in), that his former Campaign Coordinator, Eric Dondero, resigned the following day:

http://www.latestpolitics.com/blog/2007/05/former-ron-paul-campaign-manager.html

For someone who was a supporter for so long, that says a lot.

Opinions are not facts. I find it very ironic that those who believe all facts should always be questioned, if they are something good for America, are adamantly opposed to questioning of opinions by those who put forth opinions that are not favorable to America. It's a double standard I see far too often, with RP supporters...the ones supposedly about freedom and liberty.

Silence opposing views...if they don't agree with RP. We've seen that time and again, right here, for the past several months.

 

come on man, you have been so wrong for so long now its really hard to take you seriously

why don't you just say "they hate us for our freedoms" and be done with it

 

You are making the below point very clear:

 

9/11 Comission Report, CIA's own term for unintended consequences (aka "blowback") etc. I never said Scheuer was the intelligence community, I said that the intelligence community supports Dr. Paul's position. You're attempt to rewrite my post is borderline dishonest and misleading.

Little Green Footballs, the neocon haven. Sure Sheuer came off harsh on Bill Maher, but some Americans are tired of the Pro-Israel Lobby, and some Israelis as well if you read Haaretz. Americans like Sheuer want to put America, and Americans first, not countries that lobby successfully for us to subsidize them or fight their enemies with our blood and money.

Regardless, you haven't disputed that as the head of the CIA's Bin Laden unit, he might just know a little bit more about OBL than your Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly.

But Ron Paul was not wrong. Again, the facts support his position. Rudy is a demagogue. And the Fox crowd in FLA was handpicked by Frank Luntz. There is a reason why Dr. Paul doesn't get booed on MSNBC, CNBC or other debates.

Huckabee trails Paul in Nevada, Wyoming and New Hampshire, so again you're posting incorrect info. In NH, Huck has 1/2 the support Paul does. The only state Huckabee is strong in, is Iowa, and even that strength remains to be seen in the caucases. Turning out the vote requires organization, and Huckabee doesn't have enoug money to build one.

As far as Rudy, he lost 8%, and Paul gained 4% in NH. Something is going on.

Dondero is a paid employee of Rudy Giuliani and known in the Libertarian community as a neocon shill. But I would guess you already knew that.

Respond to the facts then GTech, don't play the victim card when everyone, myself included, wants to see you back up your positions and opinions with reason, not slander, straw man arguments, and Ad Hominem attacks.

 

So? What is your point here?

 

What does "Real Americans" mean? Does it mean real Americans can't or shouldn't accept that we, as a government or people, are not possibly to blame, in part or in whole?

I agree with and/or appreciate many of your points. I think healthy, honest debate is worthwhile and good. As long as people are not lowering themselves and our conversation by name calling, then I think everyone should express their thoughts. Yours included.

 

I disagree again. I've repeatedly asked for a source on where the CIA and the 9/11 report blamed America first in this respect, only to hear the sounds of crickets chirping.

Until you actually produce something that says otherwise, it's nothing more than an opinion. One that I believe is inaccurate.

Where the video resides has no bearing to the discussion. What the video portrays does. We do put our country first. The notion otherwise is a canard. One does not have exclusivity to the other, despite trying to portray it as such. I believe he encapsulates RP supporters on Israel. That's just one point of his well known discontent of regarding Jews. That he's also a known RP supporter loses his objectivity.

Many Americans are sick of the Arab lobby. I find it interesting we never hear about that powerful lobby from RP supporters. Only when it comes to Jews. And we wonder why so many anti-semites are flocking to RP? Well, some of us do.

I've never made the contention he does or does not. This is a classic strawman argument.

Sure he was wrong. That's why people get booed. That's why his campaign manager resigned. I have no information on the Fox accusation, but given how many times I've seen RP supporters make ridiculous claims, and when challenged, ignore them, then repeat them again later on, I don't take it at face value.

I didn't mention Nevada or Wyoming, so to compare my comments to such is not honest. To counter my claim that you noted was dishonest, you claim that RP has twice as much support as Huckabee in NH. This is not honest. RP is at 8, Huckabee is at 5, well within the margin of error. I do concede that minor point, however, I also point out that the others are absolutely demolishing RP, as stated. I could also say the same thing, that "even RP support in NH remains to be seen." It does work both ways.

Further, Huckabee has made tremendous ground in Iowa, currently at 21%. Does RP hold any two digit polling (other than gamed straw polls)? That's pretty impressive. There's always that chance too, if Iowa comes home to Huckabee, NH could as well.

Maybe, maybe not. As you point out, it remains to be seen. No matter how you look at it, RP is absolutely hurting EVERYWHERE.

But only after serving RP for how many years? You don't expect me to believe that lame excuse?

Let's not do this. A discussion is taking place. Nothing more. Most of what we are discussing is opinion. Facts, the poll numbers, were off to some degree by both of us. I will treat you the same as you treat me. If you want to stoop to grim's level, I'll be happy to go there, but I'd like to think you are above that.

 

I don't believe "Real Americans" sit around self-loathing and looking for a way to accept blame for the world's problems. I especially despise those who do so dishonestly, like repeating discredited death toll numbers from biased sources, or giving our country credit for things that other countries have done. Sadly, there are people like this. I've always attributed it to someone having a low self-esteem. They project their own insecurities about the world they live in, onto their country to absolve themselves of some perceived grievance.

Thank you. That is what I'm attempting. Judge me be the posts in this thread, today. There's one person I really don't get along with here, and I treat him in the same manner he treats me. That doesn't mean I have to, or will, treat you or anyone else in that same manner. We are all individuals and I'll treat you with the same cordialness I am afforded. I can't think of any fairer way to go about a discussion.

 

You are still on ignore, I do like the feature to check out a post if I want to. Merely skimming your posts however the weakness of your argument shines through.

You bring me up, yet you are the one who attacks Gtech. 'both ways, narcissist, projectionism, tearing down America' You might want to practice what you preach Start being honest and others will treat you with some respect, until then though I hope others will keep you on ignore and only occassionally respond to your fantasy filled posts. Such I am doing in this case.

You claim you didn't bring any other polls up...

Gtech why don't you be honest for a change.

You clearly are stating 'in every poll' not just NH.


Next twist?



Yet he expects us to take him seriously.