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Dmoz Lawsuits

Discussion in 'ODP / DMOZ' started by Las Vegas Homes, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. mjewel

    mjewel Prominent Member

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    #61
    You just stated the whole idea (right or wrong) behind DMOZ. They don't want to have 50 sites that are saying the same thing, even if the content is unique and said in a different way. It really can be a system of "too bad, someone else was listed before you." Every site I own has unique content. Does every site have content that is substantially different than other sites already listed? Probably not, which is probably why most of my sites are not DMOZ listed.

    From an end users standpoint, do you really want to go through 20 sites that basically have the same real estate listings, or do you want to look at one, the "best" one or maybe the "best" two or three?
     
    mjewel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
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  2. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #62
    Perhaps that depends on how you define the "end user". The only real end user, other than DMOZ editors, is Google and the webmaster because of how the DMOZ listing affects rankings for sites in that category.
     
    minstrel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  3. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #63
    It is interesting that DMOZ editors admit to problems that exist in DMOZ but instead of being interested in fixing it, they are more interested to defend and preserve the corruption and in the same time tell everyone else that they have hidden themselves so well behind their TOS that nobody can catch them and stop the corruption. :rolleyes:
     
    gworld, Dec 16, 2005 IP
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  4. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #64
    At that point, if an editor really said that, an abuse report should have been filed. If I had seen it I'd have started digging into the editor's logs to see what's up. We absolutely do not have a set number of sites to list per category and once we have them, then the category is filled up. That doesn't make any sense. :mad:

    When a category gets too big, we make subcategories if possible. If the topic cannot be further defined, we make alpha-bars. You can see this throughout the directory. :)
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  5. mjewel

    mjewel Prominent Member

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    #65
    Well, I'm not defending DMOZ. I'm saying I took the time to become an editor to see things from the other side, and it has changed my view slightly. It isn't as easy to fix as a lot of people assume. Perhaps you could take the time to become an editor and then fix the corruption? If you have specific proof, I encourage you to submit it. A regular DMOZ editor doesn't have some special power to fix anything.

    If there is a secret club, no one told me about it. I have never even had any contact from anyone at DMOZ other than auto-generated emails. I would be happy to submit any "corruption proof" you supply, but I would have to guess as to who to send it to and probably would wind up doing it the same way you could. From what I have seen, the higher ups don't think there is a problem, so it's pretty hard to change things when the people running the show don't think anything needs to be fixed. I personally don't think there is anyway to have a perfect system, and I also believe the vast majority of sites submitted don't belong in DMOZ. Unless they started listing every site, there is always going to people who complain.

    The biggest problem with DMOZ is that there are not enough editors and even good sites site unreviewed for over three years. If you became an editor, you could help the process you like to complain about. That's what I did.
     
    mjewel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  6. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #66
    Well, I assure you that I have seen that response more than once from DMOZ editors, although I don't have a link at hand to give you. To be honest, until your reply, I assumed that it actually was DMOZ policy, precisely because I have seen it more than once and from more than one editor.

    It doesn't make sense to me either...
     
    minstrel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  7. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #67
    Abuse investigations are always confidential so you wouldn't see it unless you made the report or worked closely in the area and happened to notice something going on. Editors are frequently removed, but it is done quietly and the rest of us seldom notice. If editors know the details of editor removals the information would help a wanna-be abuser figure out better ways to avoid detection. We don't want that. ;)

    On the other hand, if we didn't have to waste so much time dealing with cheaters and spammy submissions the decent suggestions would get quicker attention. Who's at fault? Those who try to manipulate the system, or those who work to make it better?
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  8. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #68
    If it were true that a category was "full" then it would also make sense that the editor who deemed it to be full would still have to review everything, including the listed sites, and replace older listings of less quality with newer listings of better quality. If someone tells you a category is full, it's all nonsense and you should question his motives.

    Please, if you ever see something like that again, tell me.
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  9. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #69
    Thanks, I'll do that. I'm sure there must be others who have seen posts like this, though.
     
    minstrel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  10. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #70
    I'm sure, and it doesn't look good for any of us when an editor spouts nonsense.
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
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  11. joeychgo

    joeychgo Notable Member

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    #71
    It would be unfair if the only reason you didnt get listed was because a competitor was the editor and denied listing your site because it was competition. Proving this wouldnt be very hard. If the editor didnt aprove any competitors, it would appear as though thats what's going on.

    Honestly, Ive never heard of anything investigated by DMOZ. There are enough complaints floating around that if they were always investigated,

    If he has listed 20 competitor sites, then i would say he isnt being unfair, just slow. thats not legally actionable.
     
    joeychgo, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  12. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #72
    No, you won't hear of anything investigated by DMOZ. The reason for that is those who investigate keep it confidential. On the other hand, those who are caught and dismissed for abuse will not come out publicaly and say, hey look at me, I abused the dmoz system and I cheated honest webmasters for my own personal profit.

    Here's a category that I know from personal experience was badly abused. Compare Shopping/Flowers as it is today to Shopping/Flowers in the summer of 2003. Look for florist affiliate sites... bad editors were dumped, categories were cleaned, good editors spent months and months sorting out that mess. We were not happy.

    And this is just one example. Abuse is not tolerated, it is dealt with when there's proof, really.
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  13. mjewel

    mjewel Prominent Member

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    #73
    You're right, a regular editor doesn't see what goes on as far as investigations. And I have previously stated that the vast majority of submissions are junk, spammy sites, and even parked domains. As you know, you just don't go to the home page and make a decision on a site. It's a fairly involved process before you can accept, or deny a site - you even have to check for mirrors. You can have a category with only 5 listings and to a person on the outside, you would think it would be pretty simple to review such a small cateory. What they don't see is the over 100 submissions waiting for review.

    While I have never documented any corruption, I know it exists because it is going to exist in anything as large as DMOZ - especially when you have editors who apply with the main intent of listing their own sites. I have never bothered to research any category I have not been accepted to because I don't feel it is worth the time. The benefit of a listing isn't worth the time imo.

    My main problem with DMOZ the what seems (and I'm making a general statement that doesn't apply to all) like an arrogant attitude when it comes to status checks (which have now been discontinued) and the fact that a person has no way of knowing if a site has been looked at (even after 3 years). I'm positive this leads to multiple submissions as a normal person would assume they were not accepted after a few years, combined with no requirement of a rejection notice being sent. Yes, DMOZ is free and you can have the attitude that it is all volunteer and its a privilege to be listed, but certainly there is a better way to curb multiple submissions and allow for an automated check of if a site has been reviewed. Many people probably wouldn't mind if they knew their site was still waiting for review after 2 years - at least they would know something.

    It wouldn't seem to be very hard to allow a site to be submitted only once during a set period of time, or at least to give a warning that submitting the site again will changed the date and can cause a further delay in review. I know this advice is given, but I'm talking about a warning when you try to submit a site again. Even an editor has to manually check to see if a site is already listed in another category.

    A submitted site can be accepted in a day, or may not even be looked at for years. Certainly there has to be a better way to keep the person who submitted the site informed in an automated way that wouldn't further stretch the limited manpower of DMOZ - or perhaps I'm not seeing the reason for not letting people know? Do you think the average person knows that the backlog created by adsense type sites can cause a delay of over three years? The Resource Zone gives the advice of resubmitting after six months - and that only causes more problems imo. While I know it varies greatly by category, do you have any idea of what total percentage of sites haven't even been looked at within a year of submission?

    I think there needs to more education on the entire process, from both sides, so editors and site submitters could see things from the other perspective.
     
    mjewel, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  14. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #74
    I agree with you on this point! mjewel, you understand that the resource zone is not part of the ODP, right? Although the resource zone no longer gives status checks, any editor (including you) can take a look and let a submitter know the status of their site suggestion if they feel like it. There are no dmoz rules saying we can't do that.

    In fact, I answer email enquiries a lot, but they seldom go through. It's a bit frustrating when you take the time to find answers and reply to someone asking about a site they suggested only to have the email bounce.

    I just had another one bounce back to me today, and they were mad to start out with. Now they'll be even madder because I ignored them. The email I tried to send would have told them we're getting a dns error for the site and have been since October, but they won't ever know that because they didn't use an email address I could respond to.

    Ironic, isn't it? :rolleyes:
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
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  15. jkomp

    jkomp Well-Known Member

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    #75
    And people say Americans just don't get irony, how wrong 'people' can be ;)
     
    jkomp, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  16. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

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    #76
    Sure we do, that's why we have invented DMOZ :D
     
    Blogmaster, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  17. compostannie

    compostannie Peon

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    #77
    I can't tell if we're fighting or getting along. :D
     
    compostannie, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  18. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

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    #78
    A little bit of both, Annie ... a little bit of both :)
     
    Blogmaster, Dec 16, 2005 IP
  19. jkomp

    jkomp Well-Known Member

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    #79
    No fighting just a bit of teasing between allies ;)

    Seriously I spend a lot of the time in the USA mighty fine place you have made there! :D
     
    jkomp, Dec 16, 2005 IP
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  20. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

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    #80
    Depends where in the U.S. you go. :)
     
    Blogmaster, Dec 16, 2005 IP