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Sad day for America

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by gworld, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. #1
    “The exceedingly important question before us is whether the President of the United States possesses the authority to detain militarily a citizen of this country who is closely associated with al Qaeda, an entity with which the United States is at war,” Judge Michael Luttig wrote. “We conclude that the President does possess such authority.”

    Court allows ‘dirty bomb’ suspect to be held

    It seems that 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals effectively canceled the American's right to due process.

    The bases of western world judicial system is that "you are innocent until proven guilty in court" but this ruling simply change this to "you are guilty as long as we think you are guilty". Since there as been no court ruling about this persons guilt or inocence the ruling in reality means:

    “The exceedingly important question before us is whether the President of the United States possesses the authority to detain militarily a citizen of this country , We conclude that the President does possess such authority.”

    This is a reverse not only 229 years of the American rule of law regarding the rights of average citizens, but nearly eight centuries of human rights that go back June of 1215 when King John was forced by the feudal lords to sign the Magna Carta at Runnymede.

    Articles 38 and 39 of the Magna Carta said:

    "38 In future no official shall place a man on trial upon his own unsupported statement, without producing credible witnesses to the truth of it.

    "39 No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land."


    The US constitution also supports the habeas corpus and Alexander Hamilton - arguably the most conservative of the Founders - wrote in Federalist 84:

    "The establishment of the writ of habeas corpus ... are perhaps greater securities to liberty and republicanism than any it [the Constitution] contains. ...[T]he practice of arbitrary imprisonments have been, in all ages, the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny. The observations of the judicious [British 18th century legal scholar] Blackstone, in reference to the latter, are well worthy of recital:
    "'To bereave a man of life,' says he, 'or by violence to confiscate his estate, without accusation or trial, would be so gross and notorious an act of despotism, as must at once convey the alarm of tyranny throughout the whole nation; but confinement of the person, by secretly hurrying him to jail, where his sufferings are unknown or forgotten, is a less public, a less striking, and therefore A MORE DANGEROUS ENGINE of arbitrary government.''' [Capitals all Hamilton's from the original.]

    It seems the court has declared the USA a kingdom and the age of tyranny has started.


    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    -Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  2. Nitin M

    Nitin M White/Gray/Black Hat

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    #2
    You have omitted this key phrase when presenting your arguments.

    Scenario:
    Germany at war with Spain. German General walking the streets of Barcelona. What happens? Of course, he would be detained... in any country this would happen.

    It's opens a pandora's box which noone is really certain where the line should be drawn. But, at the same, no country should allow terrorists to hide behind the cloak of their non-county affiliation to be able to freely travel into countries where they openly acknoweldge they have plans to perpetuate violence and terror.
     
    Nitin M, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  3. Henny

    Henny Peon

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    #3
    Then they came for the Dirty Bomber, and the liberals squeeled and hired lawyers :rolleyes:
     
    Henny, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  4. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #4
    If it is war then Geneva convention and regulation regarding POW should be applied. If he is a civilian and American citizen then American laws and Constitution should apply. Nobody arguing that he or anyone else that is suspected of terrorism or any other criminal act should be arrested but I think they should be treated according to law.

    The problem is that there is no law that they would like to apply and that is called tyranny, my friend.
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  5. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #5
    How do you know if some one is dirty bomber, terrorist or criminal? :confused:

    What happens if next time they decide to arrest John kerry, head of ACLU or you for that matter because they suspect that you have ties to terrorism?
    Can you prove that you are not a terrorist?
    It doesn't matter anyway because you will never see inside a court house, they will just put you in a prison cell and forget about you until you die.
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  6. palespyder

    palespyder Psycho Ninja

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    #6
    Nitin you are my new hero! :)
     
    palespyder, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  7. palespyder

    palespyder Psycho Ninja

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    #7
    GWorld, if you hate the way things are done is America....DON'T MOVE HERE!!!! Okay next topic ;) Seriously though, why do the things that happen here ruffle your feathers so much?
     
    palespyder, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  8. Nitin M

    Nitin M White/Gray/Black Hat

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    #8
    So, am I reading this right? In the history of our country we have designated a sum total of 2 citizens as enemy combatants? Sometimes the fear of "well what's next if we allow this to happen?" creates such a buzz that we can't see the forest through the trees. I'd have to say if this has happened only twice in the history of our country, then it's a little too early to be panic'ed about the larger implications.

    At the same time, japanese-american US citizens on US soil being imprisoned during WWII wasn't all that long ago. So, it's not that I don't see the potential for things to go too far. I just don't think based on 2 cases, there's any real issue right now.

    And what violation of the Geneva convention would we be guilty of?
     
    Nitin M, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  9. toocoolforschool

    toocoolforschool Peon

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    #9
    Yeah what is up with gworld? I don't really bother all that much with the General Chat forum, but I'll be damn if this guy doesn't constantly post anti-American rants in it. What is this obsession with hating America, dude? It can't possibly be healthy! Go get it looked at before you start grabbing a bomb and trying to blow up my country.
     
    toocoolforschool, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  10. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #10
    Nitin, the question is how many have to be arrested before tyranny becomes a problem, 20, 200, 2000 or 2 million? Even at 2 million is still less than 1% of population, so someone can argue that is not such a big problem.
    We can not break the laws or apply it arbitrarily as we fit for the moment.

    Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.
    Louis D. Brandeis (1856 - 1941), (Supreme Court Justice)

    How can quoting US Constitution and Alexander Hamilton (one of the founder of USA) be anti-American? :confused:
    How about instead of being cool, you start going to school, read the Constitution and learn about your country? :rolleyes:

    I will be interested to know how many of you who defend these actions think US constitution is Anti-American?
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  11. Hodgedup

    Hodgedup Notable Member

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    #11
    You do know that Bush didn't sign the Magna Carta, right? I mean I could understand how you would be confused because most of your posts come off with you being a complete idiot. I just wanted you to have your America Bashing facts straight.

    I think you would be better served to find a forum that is pro-terrorism.
     
    Hodgedup, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  12. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #12
    I know that Bush didn't live in 1215, so he couldn't sign it. :rolleyes:

    That document is one of the pillars of western civilisation and it is included in US constitution and if you read my post, you could see that hamilton defends it (do you know who Alexander hamilton is?) and the same rights are included in US constituation as Habeas Corpus.

    This is what Habeas Corpus means:

    A writ issued to bring a party before a court to prevent unlawful restraint.

    The basic premise behind habeas corpus is that you cannot be held against your will without just cause. To put it another way, you cannot be jailed if there are no charges against you. If you are being held, and you demand it, the courts must issue a writ or habeas corpus, which forces those holding you to answer as to why. If there is no good or compelling reason, the court must set you free. It is important to note that of all the civil liberties we take for granted today as a part of the Bill of Rights, the importance of habeas corpus is illustrated by the fact that it was the sole liberty thought important enough to be included in the original text of the Constitution.

    Have you ever studied the US Constitution? :rolleyes:
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  13. Hodgedup

    Hodgedup Notable Member

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    #13
    Yes I know who Alexander Hamilton is and I know what Habeas Corpus is. I'm guessing you just had your big test on Alexander Hamilton.

    The US constitution is based on the Magna Carta it isn’t included in it. Apparently they didn’t teach you that during your 1 semester of US Government.

    Ahh amazingly you hit it. There is a good reason. He is an enemy combatant.

    If you would like to continue your education of US government then feel free to post and I will continue to educate you. If you show improvement I will take you to get one of those red, white, and blue Popsicles.
     
    Hodgedup, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  14. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #14
    Hodgedup

    Playing stupid or avoiding answers and instead try to argue words doesn't serve any purpose in discussion and everyone can see that you lack an intelligent response.

    You know that I was mentioning the history of a principal and law that any civilized country in the world including USA has accepted and it is only in the last few years that your country is trying to demolish it.

    Just your government saying that he is enemy combatant is not a good reason, the same way that if your government said somebody is a murderer or thief is not a good reason for keeping that person in jail without trial for indefinite time. If he is a guilty of a crime, he must have his day in court and the possibility to defend himself as any other criminal and as guaranteed by US constitution and American law.

    It is strange for some one who tries to be so red, white and blue, you show such a contempt and disrespect for US Constitution. :rolleyes:
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  15. Hodgedup

    Hodgedup Notable Member

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    #15
    But I have to play stupid so that I can come down to your actual level of stupidity. As far as my actual response I think I pretty much nailed it. I bet you’re flipping through your tattered copy of US GOV 101 right now and muttering to yourself “What did teacher say about Magna Carta and stupid American capitalist pigs.”

    Time and time again you are involved in arguments involving your US bashing and I’m tired of reading them so that’s why I responded the way I did. I don’t know how you get any work done. You must spend 20 hours a day looking for articles to cut and paste from to support your US bash.

    I’m not sure how you say I’m showing contempt and disrespect for the US Constitution by defending a country that you bash time and time again. I’m guessing you are using the words incorrectly like you incorrectly represent facts.

    Oh yeah you can forget the Popsicle now. I’m going to just give it to someone else.
     
    Hodgedup, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  16. GTech

    GTech Rob Jones for President!

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    #16
    Anti-American?

    Pro-Terrorist?

    None defend a terrorist like gworld does. Glad others are starting to post about how virtually every post gworld makes is bashing America.
     
    GTech, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  17. Hodgedup

    Hodgedup Notable Member

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    #17
    Yeah I think he is in some kind of club where you have to publicly defend one every other day or you get kicked out.
     
    Hodgedup, Sep 9, 2005 IP
  18. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #18
    According to you, not agreeing with Bush =US Bashing :confused:
    How did you come up with that conclusion, I know some religious people think of him as Jesus but do not you think that considering his policies to be the whole country is little bit too much, especially now that majority do not support him? ;)
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  19. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #19
    Gtech

    People like me always fight against injustice, independent if it is for the right of Jews in Germany, prisoners in USA or Blacks in former south Africa. On the other hand people like you will always try to demolish the rule of law, be it today in America or your former spiritual brothers who worked as SS officers in concentration camps in Nazi Germany. I am sure they called the people who were supporting Jews, Pro-Jew, Jew lover, Germany enemies,.......also.
    There is nothing new under the sun, only the words that is used by people like you changes.
     
    gworld, Sep 9, 2005 IP
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  20. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #20
    Here comes the stupid posts again- I don't know 1 person who puts Bush on a pedestal, especially one that is even close to Jesus. But if you aren't bashing Bush or the U.S. you are bashing a christian.

    You got to have more in life than just hating people!
     
    debunked, Sep 9, 2005 IP