What is really going on with Greece?

I am not really sure if Greece is just one big joke or not, I really want to get a better understanding of the issue, and why they were celebrating their massive "NO" in the recent voting.

I really want someone from Greece to help me understand their side of the story, as our media here, (and online) is likely to be biased, and possibly missing a few critical details.

To sum up, a yes meant accepting small sacrifices in order to make their country stronger and successful long term. A no vote, means rejecting cash required to keep the country running, means the government possibly cancelling pensions ALLTOGETHER, means possibly people losing all funds in their banks while they switch back to their old currency, so please explain why they voted no and were happy about it!?

Here is what our media has shown to us in our country. (this may be inaccurate, hence i want clarfication on these points)
1. Greece wastes millions of borrowed funds on advertising on its public transport network German war crimes and associated atrocities.

2. Greece wastes millions of borrowed funds on silly voting for something which should be decided by politicians.

3. Greece given over 230, BILLION euros, but could not put aside 1.5 billion for a repayment?!

4. 8% of all Greece citizens retire at 26 years old!

5. Had the Greece government being better at managing the countries finances, implemented on its own a better system to detect and catch and punish the tax fraudsters, Greece would not be in such a mess. Even if they had done this 6 months ago, they would be better off, had they done it years ago, they could be a world leader.

6. Voting yes, and accepting the terms of the 8.1 Billion euro bailout, would have seen the country have a better chance of pulling itself out of the mess its in, on the conditions that Greece actually makes a valid attempt of running its finances properly. The banks would have re-opened, and business could have resumed already, people would be able to access their funds, and go about life like normal.

7. Voting No against a bailout deal, meant turning down foreign help, meant that they, the citizens accepted that the banks would remain closed, and means there is a high chance of a Grexit.

8. At the risk of a Grexit, could see them back to their old currency -> will this mean that anyone with $100k in euro, end up with nothing? But this is the risk they wanted, AND accepted by voting No? Or did the average Greek not understand what they were voting for? The day after they voted no, there is photos of a man outside a bank exhausted from trying to get access to his own funds, did he not realise this was the result of a NO vote?

9. Once the Grexit is completed, and they go back to their old currency, they will be similar to Argentina, which also defaulted. In Argentina, shops nation wide ran out of necessities such as tampons as it became difficult (if not impossible) to import anything at all. Many businesses in Greece may fail if they rely on imports. The government will have to cancel pensions ENTIRELY as it wont have funds AT ALL!
All the measures that they voted no against, will come in, and WORSE! So again, why did they vote no in the voting?

10. Even if we wiped out the massive debt, without making changes, how long before Greece is again in 230billion euro debt again? Surely they dont expect their entire lifestyle to be funded for free by other countries?

11. Everyone in Greece seems to have a hostile attitude of Europe, yet noone in Greece seems to challenge their leaders ability to run the country at all. There SHOULD be people marching in the streets, demanding the resignation of its current leaders. Voting YES or NO on a 8.1 billion euro deal, its too late.... Where was the voting on the borrowing of 230billion euro? Or does noone care about that?

Europe are the saviors of Greece, constantly helping them, its the Greek leaders that have F**KED their country, so why is it we see on our media this hostile attitude displayed by Greeks towards their saviors, but they show a seeming undying loyalty to their leaders?

I really want to know, do people in Greece really believe that if Greece could not repay, or be trusted with 230billion euro, and if Greece and its citizens refuses to make changes to be able to repay the debt, that they would be given more funds for free when they Voted NO to making small sacrifices in order to repay the debt?

How many more BILLION does Greece need to borrow before they start to realise that their current pension system, and lifestyle are bankrupting their own country?


I saw this the other day, I thought it was just a joke:
Dear Sir/Madam
I have contacted you today for an urgent cry of mercy. There has been catastrophic events in recent times, with war, drought, famine, floods, earthquakes that has ravaged the world. But today, I come begging for your help for a tragedy far worse then this, one the world has never seen before.
Right now, the economy in Greece is in a dire state. If help does not arrive soon, it will force people as old as 26, to leave retirement and work again.
You have the ability to help! For every dollar you donate, someone as old as 26 can enjoy another hour of retirement.

We promise that for every country that donates, we will go easy on them during the next olympic games.

Please share this on facebook, share this with your friends, Greece is facing darkest hour!

Donate now with paypal by send donation to

Kindest regards,
Prokopis Pavlopoulos (president of Greece)

And then I saw this:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story

So maybe when they do another fundraiser, we all should pitch in a few $$$ so that the greeks 26 and over can continue to enjoy retirement. Maybe every 10 years, we can do a fundraiser for Greece to wipe out its debt.

 

Helping their citizens is one thing, but making them lazy is something completely different. I feel that greece has made their people lazy. Only when people work the country grows.

This video has some good insight into how it works -

 

You will get a different opinion for every answer you receive, based on each person beliefs.

I will stand in this sentence: "8% of all Greece citizens retire at 26 years old!". Who said that? Not a single Greek has retired or about to retire at age of 26 or even near it. The message you are quoting is a scam of course, you may want to remove the email from it to avoid people get scammed. If you also read the FAQ in the indiegogo fundraising you posted you will see that it has been started by a British person who wanted to help. It does not have any connection with the Greek government or any Greek individual and of course, the goal could never be met as you can easily realize.

 

Two quotes (paraphrased) that come to mind on this topic.

1. The end of democracy comes when the majority figures out that it can extract wealth from the minority. (Not sure who said this.)

2. The trouble with socialism is that, eventually, you run out of other people's money. (Margaret Thatcher)

Greece is just ahead of the curve, when it comes to these facts. We are seeing the signs here in the U.S. that we are starting to reach the tipping point where there will soon be more "takers" than "makers" in the population. It has shown itself to be a growing issue with the last two presidential elections where the takers ruled. Greece is showing that they have gone way past that tipping point and it is not clear that they can turn it around now.

 

"8% of all Greece citizens retire at 26 years old!" -> it was on a news website that had an article about what % of the population retires and at what age, and there was a subsquent article I saw showed how many of their population was still working at 45-55, 55-65 etc... There is a very high chance it is a fake article, hence why I am asking for clarification. I wouldnt ask for clarification if i thought it was fact.
The article did say that there were different ages for retirement (for government and non-government workers) I will look for the source, but if I cant find it now, I might have to ask my friend at work who showed it to me for the url. The article did not say if it was self funded retirement or not, which IS a big difference. Every country would no doubt have people who can self retire by the time they are born...

I know the fundraiser says he is not from Greece, (never hurts to be slightly distrustful...) and hitting the amount he did was amazing, but at the same time, I know of other fundraisers going on.
There are fundraisers going on facebook to help specific people. From one part of australia, (not the Australian government itself) nearly $500million (aud) is being put aside to help people that live in Greece (but have Australian passports / citizenship) to help them resettle and gain employment in Australia (not that the Australian job market is any good...)

Donations are coming to Greece, I know that much. I really do not have a clue as to how bad things really are over there, and I really hope people there are able to recover from this.

Just FYI, our company had 1 greek worker from Greece. In 7 years that I knew him, he never left early once. In the 7 years that I knew him, he had never been late once. Even when he was sick he would show up, (sometimes the boss would send him home) but he was one of the hardest office workers you have ever seen. I know its racist, but I really had thought of them all as being hard workers. I can only hope part of this is still true...

 

I would like to read that article if you can find the link. I doubt that the percentage of self-retirement is that big either because I live here and I see how things are. About half or more of the population at age of 26 does not have a stable job, how can some retire at this age?

Let me give you an example on our economy. I am a web developer. 4 out of 5 web development companies here give the base salary which is less than $8000 per year based on current exchange rate (others may pay some more but not too much, maybe 2-3k more per year). With that money someone can cover basic expenses. Do you think that he/she can retire?
Also, companies are closing continuously here and even more employees find themselves unemployed day by day. That's also one of the reasons that people voted "No". If we accepted the lenders suggestions the tax for every company would be about 55%, now it is 45%. Do you think that any company can survive by paying 55% tax and also pay employees and any other expense?

 

To pay taxes, Greeks have to earn money. To earn money, there should be possibilities to earn money - not only tourism and growing olives, but factories, infrastructure, building housing, etc. However, Greece has literally no heavy industry at the moment and most of their enterprises are around tourism and services. They have beautiful nature and climate, cousine and culture, a lot of touristic attractions - they have a lot of potential.

What can they do? STOP WHINING AND BEGIN WORKING.

Make sure foreign tourists will be safe - beat the protesters to unconscious state if need be, but force them to shut the f*** up and sit still. And invite French and German tourists, offering them great service at low cost. This will give them money flow to begin building other GDP-adding industries.

But will they do it? of course not! They are used to spending much while doing little and their government is too weak to do any good.

New crisis is coming and we cannot predict what will it's outcome be.

 

I cannot say if the government is weak, but it does appear that they took all this money and spent it on immediate benefits for its citizens so that they could temporarily enjoy a higher standard of living than their economics warranted. They should have invested that money into infrastructure, helping new businesses, etc. Of course, this neglect has been going on for decades and decades, apparently. Now, a majority of the populace do not understand how economics actually work.

While it would be quite bad for Greece, the EU should consider showing other, like-minded countries what is going to happen if they refuse to do the right thing with money by letting Greece fail completely and figure out what it is going to do from there.

 

The creation of the EU was a horrendous mistake to begin with.

How can anyone sane ask 28 countries to commit to the same monetary system without any serious mandate for fiscal responsibility? It's suicide.

Even if some may say that in economic terms it does not seem like a huge mistake, but when it comes to democracy, forcing countries to join the union without the deliberate consent of the people does.

I have had several conversations with guys from Europe over the years. I'd ask something like, "So how's that union thing working for you guys?". Inevitably I'd hear, "Oh, it's great. We can travel throughout the entire EU without any visas!". Seriously? That's the pinnacle of your excitement? You don't have to have visas to travel to another country? Wow.

Anyway, the whole thing is a mess, not just Greece.

 

I am looking for the right links.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33382046
Shows pensions were an average of €1,350 in 2009, (over 17,000 USD), so some were alot higher and lower. As an outsider, I am not aware of the buying power at all, but from your quote, some pensions "were" therefore double what full time workers were earning. Its not something I understand at all. Minor changes should have been made well before 2009, now, any changes it makes will be drastic and risk killing the economy completely.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-...g-greek-family-in-unconventional-ways/6604928
Shows there are Greek people, drawing pensions FROM Greece Government, but living in Australia...
I dont understand this, every dollar the Greek government gives them leaves the country. At least if they lived in Greece the money would likely support greece, and stay in Greece. Greece needs to cut the pension for ex-pats.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/12/04/75-of-greek-pensioners-enjoy-early-retirement/
This website reports that:
“In the public sector, 7.91% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 23.64% between 51 and 55, and 43.53% between 56 and 61. In IKA, 4.44% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 12.83% retire between 51 and 55, and 58.61% retire between 56 and 61. Meanwhile, in the so-called healthy funds, 91.6% of people retire before the national retirement age limit,” Vroutsis said. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...-enjoy-early-retirement/#sthash.dSlGkcMI.dpuf

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/europe-balks-at-greeces-retire-at-50-rules/
http://spectator.org/articles/37016/good-life-greek-style
Shows while average retirement age is 61, hundreds can retire at 50 ("Nearly 600 jobs are similarly rewarded by the Greek authorities"). One article saying potential bacteria in microphones means that even news reporters can retire early????


Keep in mind the retirement age in Australia is 70, ( a big difference from the 50, and 55 in Greece). And noone my age that works full time expects a single $1 from the government when we retire. Even our own savings (superannuantion) may no longer exist by the time I reach 70....

EDIT:
Another cool link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33382046
"In August 2011, it was discovered that 1,473 people had received pensions totalling millions of dollars - despite being dead."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/12/us-greece-pensioners-idUSTRE77B4BV20110812
"The fraud was uncovered after the fund began running checks earlier this year on pensioners born more than 100 years ago, then moved on to those born afterwards, he said."

 

My main thought is that without the bailout, many businesses cannot access funds, or import raw goods, materials, needed to survive. The key to any economy is business, as that leads to jobs and creates employment, both businesses and jobs provides a stable taxable base, growing this base (or protecting it), should be the governments priority.

 

As you already said the numbers you posted about pensions are given back at 2009. Back then, the base salary was bigger too. As you can read in the article the pensions have dropped 40% by then.

And retiring at "the age of 26" and "the age between 26 and 50" is very different. Because when you say 8% between 26 and 50, the 7.5% may be between 45 and 50. There are special cases to retire in small age as I believe there are in any country.

 

Yeah, it is a large difference. Perhaps it is something lost in translation there, and even blown out of porportion.

Here we have retirement (essentially meaning, fit, healthy, able to work, but deciding to retire due to age), and we have disability pension, (almost meaning, too young to meet the criteria for retirement, but physically, or mentally unable to work). Perhaps the statics include both (disability and retirement) as the being the same. That would be highly irresponsible though.

Tomorrow (9th july), is going to be a big day...
http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...mal-request-to-esm-for-third-bailout-program/

 

Exactly, and I do not believe that this has been the case in Greece for a loooooong time. There is no question that they will suffer horribly, at least in the short-term, if other countries do not reach back into their pockets to provide additional handouts for them. But, and this is a big but, think how instructive it would be for them and for other countries around the world to witness the results of such bad practices.

 

I've wathced a pretty neat video about the possible outcomes of Greece crisis - and establishing the same FISCAL SYSTEM throughout EU in addition to the same MONETARY SYSTEM is one of the best variants, considering some other are complete bailout of 15 countries and wars for food.

However, several millions of crooked politicians and bureaucrats across the EU will not be able to steal money then... so this is least likely to happen.
Because nobody cannot throw several million of fuckers to jails and confiscate their property to repay the damage they did to several hundred millions of population of 28 countries.

Or can we do this?

 

US debt is mostly internal, only 30% are external and these can be paid with gold. The rest is domestic and can be wiped out entirely upon reaching agreement with domestic investors - "here is your 49-years-long concession that will bring you $100 000 000 000 and forget that we owe you $50 000 000 000". That's one of the things the new US President will have to do, so US does not worry about their debt much.

At least this is the sane way. What they will do... my crystal globe is broken and I cannot predict it...

 

In addition to the above, there are at least two other factors that allow nations to deal with significant debt: economic growth (which increases tax revenues to pay back loans and interest) and inflation (which "shrinks" the value of debt owed. $1MM today is not what it used to be twenty years ago, e.g.) With strong growth and slight inflation (not crazy inflation, of course) huge debts can become manageable. However, the country cannot get into the position of missing a debt payment, as Greece has done time and again, or the debtors will lose confidence that they will be paid back and that leads to problems.

 

The thing is that US government was not able to pay the interest rates, Obama asked the Congress to prolong the payment term, they even issued the shutdown to cut expenses and made many other mistakes.

The debt should be dealt with or it will lead to collapse of the country. We will see what happens to Greece and hope the US and EU will make conclusions.

 

I believe that it is a matter of demographics. When the number of "takers" is larger than the number of "makers" in a nation and the takers learn (often quickly) that they can use the government to begin to loot the wealth of the makers, bad things will happen because, eventually, as Margaret Thatcher said, you run out of other people's money. Greece may have reached that tipping point with other countries not too far behind, generationally-speaking. Some here in the U.S. are worried that we recently demonstrated that we have reached this tipping point with the re-election of Obama in 2012, despite his obvious failures and shortcomings during the first four years he was in office. The takers had a strong interest in keeping him in office, of course.