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Which Website Theme?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by scott2342, Mar 1, 2015.

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  1. #1
    Hi Guys,

    I'm starting a new project and instead spending a lot and making a custom website I thought that I'd buy a wordpress theme for a start then move on. I've not completely decided on wordpress yet so any better options would be good. I'm trying to base the website layout off this popular one > moneysavingexpert.com

    Here are the wordpress themes I've found:

    1) http://thegossip.wpengine.com/
    2) http://jellywp.com/theme/nanomag/home-page/home-page-no-slider-2col/
    3) http://themeforest.net/item/maxblog-flat-news-magazine-blog-wp/full_screen_preview/9728399


    Which one do you prefer? Would you recommend something other than wordpress? My idea is to try and get this to a stage where I could warrant spending money on it for a custom site not in wordpress.

    Thanks
     
    scott2342, Mar 1, 2015 IP
  2. Oscar Mariotti

    Oscar Mariotti Greenhorn

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    #2
    If these themes are suitable for your website then once you try these themes. After that if you are facing some problem regarding themes you must change the selection process of a website.
     
    Oscar Mariotti, Mar 21, 2015 IP
  3. COBOLdinosaur

    COBOLdinosaur Active Member

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    #3
    The site you have decided to mimic is from a technical standpoint trash. The HTML validator reports 44 errors. If you are satisfied with that level of mediocrity, then any of those themes will do. They will all insure that you are limited to the level of the third rate developers who write most of that trash. If you actually want to achieve something and produce a website of some real value, then forget using other peoples code and start doing your own stuff instead of borrowing from developers who have the time to create trash plugins because they can't get much legitimate work doing development at a professional level.
     
    COBOLdinosaur, Mar 21, 2015 IP
  4. dave2013

    dave2013 Well-Known Member

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    #4
    Free themes are typically limited with functionality. You can buy a premium theme for around $40. For ease of use wordpress themes are definitely the easiest to use without getting into programming
     
    dave2013, Mar 21, 2015 IP
  5. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #5
    None of the above. I'm sorry to hear you've decided to say "to hell with if my site is actually useful to visitors" with the outright scam artist BS that are off the shelf themes... but let's do a serious analysis of the ones you linked to.

    The Gossip -- inaccessible illegible fixed metric fonts, pathetically broken attempt at responsive layout, some colour choices that look more like rendering errors than intentional design... pretty much an epic fail at design.

    Under the hood it's a massive absurd 121k of "I can haz intarnets" coding which one can expect from off the shelf templates. From endless pointless scripttardery, to that stupid malfing halfwit "let's have a half dozen HTML tags wrapped in IE conditionals piss away ANY HTML 5 header savings" crap Paul Irish came up with, to a bunch of LINK nothing actually cares about, to robots META values that don't even actually exist, to sending the screen media CSS to all devices (herpafreakingderp), to static style inlined in the markup, to the idiotic mouth-breathing dumbass use of jQuery to dick with the layout... and that's before we get to the turdpress stupidity of "let's throw dozens of classes at everything because we're too stupid to realize how to use CSS properly"

    Seriously, as I often say if you don't know what's wrong with code like this:
    <body class="home page page-id-6 page-parent page-template-default sb-right">
 
	<!-- BEGIN TOP BAR -->
		
	<div id="top-bar">

		<!-- BEGIN TOP BAR INNER -->

		<div id="top-bar-inner">
	
			<!-- BEGIN TOP NAV -->

			<div id="top-nav" class="nav">
		
				<ul id="menu-top-nav" class="menu"><li id="menu-item-180" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page current-menu-item page_item page-item-6 current_page_item current-menu-ancestor current-menu-parent current_page_parent current_page_ancestor menu-item-has-children menu-item-180"><a href="http://thegossip.wpengine.com/">Home</a>
    Code (markup):
    You probably shouldn't be allowed to have a website in the first damned place. Back away from the keyboard now and leave web development to people qualified to do it.

    There's only 17 content images and 6.11k of plaintext on the entire page, meaning that 121k of markup is anywhere from eight to ten times the amount of code needed for such a simple page. You add in the 25 extra images for christmas only knows what totalling 2 megabytes, and just plain ridiculous 200k of scripttardery and 100k of CSS in eight separate files for christmas only knows what (given the simplicity of the pages the entire SITE shouldn't need more than 32k of CSS) and it's just developer ineptitude of the highest order!

    You would be better off putting a shotgun under your chin and pulling the trigger than using that template.

    nanomag Are we sure this is a different theme? Oh wait, no, it's WORSE as it has that goofy scripttard BS 'late image load' garbage to cover up cramming too much crap on the main page. It has all the accessibility and design failings of the previous site, with even more annoying "gee ain't it neat" animated scripttardery pissing on the page's speed and usefulness.

    Under the hood, it's the same story of "the person who wrote this has no business writing HTML" typical of all turdpress templates.

    At a total of 3.955 megabytes in 105 separate files, the minimum first-load time is anywhere from 20 seconds to a full on minute and a half -- web development ineptitude of the highest order. That it's developer seems to think that ANY website has ANY business loading 582k of CSS in 17 separate files is proof enough of that.

    Did I say under the chin? You might want to move that up to the temple.

    MaxBlog -- Just when we think things couldn't get worse, when I'm diving for the zoom on a 27" display and STILL can't read it thanks to light-grey on white text, the person who shit this site together makes the previous two halfwits look outright competant. Take everything from the previous two sites and double how bad it is from a design and accessibility standpoint. That site has traffic? I'd half suspect it of bullshitting it's own numbers.

    We pop the bonnet and it's the same turdpress, scripttardy and other "I cans haz intarnets" development methods used by people who have no damned business building websites. It's made even worse by the endless pointless static scripting in the markup, stylesheet in the markup (again without media targets) and other bits of developer ineptitude one can expect from an off the shelf turdpress template. The 226k of markup is doing less than 20k's job, it too has the endless pointless idiotic massive amounts of scripting (299k in 16 files) and CSS (285k in 10 files) doing the job of 1/20th that much code for an entire SITE.

    ------ SUMMARY -------

    All three of those are miserable steaming piles of failure that I pity anyone DUMB ENOUGH to want to use on a website. Only ignorance and the "gee ain't it purty" mentality of suits with paychecks and the sheer hucksterism of the fools who vomit up this crap could possibly explain how garbage like this even exists. These are stunning examples of why off the shelf templates and the garbage turdpress vomits up and calls HTML is nothing more than an utter and complete epic fail, and the province of sleazeball scam artists preying upon the ignorance of nubes and those who can't be bothered to actually try and do what websites are actually for -- delivering content of value to users in as accessible a manner as possible.

    NOWHERE in any of those sites is there anything remotely resembling good practice, accessible design, or even a rational development decision. Site owners are dumber for any of these templates even existing. I award them no points, and may God have mercy on their souls.

    The real laugh being I would likely say the exact same thing about those so called "premium templates" @dave2013 mentioned, those being the REAL scam since that particular brand of asshat have the giant pair of donkey brass to charge money for their BS.

    You kind of have to ask yourself, do you want moth-eaten thrift store goods (free templates), Wallsmart one size fits all sweatpants where the drawstring breaks in a week and the stiching goes three days later ("premium templates") or a tailored suit? (custom fitted for what's actually important, what you are putting inside it!)

    Off the shelf templates are like cramming a 500 pound fat woman's size 14 hoof into a size 7 shoe; even if you accomplish the feat it's not gonna walk very far.
     
    deathshadow, Mar 21, 2015 IP
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  6. COBOLdinosaur

    COBOLdinosaur Active Member

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    #6
    Just to sum up about this nonsense of "premium" themes; anyone who is convinced that they are going to get better quality by paying for something developed by an out of work, third-rate coder should consider that the best are probably the free ones written by the second-rate coders between gigs. As for finding something written by an experienced, quality prove developers; not going to happen. The developers who can actually build quality themes are doing it on a custom basis for top dollar, and most would not even consider using a bloated load of crap like WP.

    If you want a quality site there are only two reliable ways to get it. Raise your skills to the level of a top professional developer, with a little hard work learning; or hire a top professional to do the job for you. Most of the shortcuts lead to the same mediocre deadend; and the rest take to Satan's torture room.
     
    COBOLdinosaur, Mar 22, 2015 IP
  7. CWT Inc.

    CWT Inc. Peon

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    #7
    Theme forest is always the best place to buy themes from my experience. Reason being is that most of the providers are making a lot of money on TF and our consistently doing updates and keeping your site fresh and safe. This is a huge advantage.
     
    CWT Inc., Mar 23, 2015 IP
  8. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #8
    Not a lot of experience then?

    By preying upon the ignorance of the average dimwit who goes "I want a website" but is unwilling to put the effort into having a successful or financially viable one.

    It's a really great scam given how many "sophisticated Internet investors" are willing to just fork over cash for vague promises and "gee ain't it neat" flash over substance snake oil.
     
    deathshadow, Mar 23, 2015 IP
  9. CWT Inc.

    CWT Inc. Peon

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    #9
    -------------------------------------

    They constantly have amazing sites, have several providers whom have made over a million in sales, and consistently updated their themes, so their users have a continued great experience.
     
    CWT Inc., Mar 23, 2015 IP
  10. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #10
    Methinks we have a different definition of the word "amazing" -- some of them certainly are very pretty, but their accessibility and underlying code are universally bloated rubbish doomed to failure on search, doomed to failure on usefulness to users, and doomed to failure on hosting costs.

    Yes, there's a great deal of money to be made being a sleazy scam artists and preying on the ignorant who don't know enough on the topic of what a website is to be qualified to decide what to use other than "oooh, pretty".

    Which is why for site owners, what is "provided" typically ends up bounce-city money pits.

    Just because Carlton Sheets, Muhammad Niaz, Kevin Trudea and Youree Harris made millions if not billions doesn't make them any less a bunch of sleazeball scam artists preying upon the ignorance of others -- 99.99% of the content of template whorehouses like ThemeForest or TemplateMonster having all the business legitimacy of Shamwow, HeadOn and Miss Cleo's pshychic network!

    I was a little surprised when I found out Oxy-clean is a legitimate product!

    Just take, gah, what's it called... uDesign I think? Inaccessible fixed metric fonts sending visual accessibility users diving for the zoom, broken pathetic attempt at responsiveness, endless pointless scripttardery, illegible colour contrasts, I could go on for an hour before we even look under the hood...

    Where their DEMO is a ape-shit insane 3 megabytes in 87 files, 381k of that in 13 files being "JS for nothing" and 382k in 13 files being the CSS... that much CSS being such an unbelievable train wreck of ineptitude it is guaranteed proof that whoever built that **** has NO MALFING BUSINESS WRITING WEBSITES!!!

    Handshaking ALONE not even counting filesizes a connection starved user could be seeing anywhere from 16 seconds (what I'm seeing) to over a MINUTE for that crap to load.

    As I often say, if you don't know what's wrong with deploying code like this:
    <body   class="home page page-id-3336 page-template page-template-page-FullWidth page-template-page-FullWidth-php u-design-responsive-on u-design-menu-auto-arrows-on  u-design-fixed-menu-on">
            <div id="feedback"><a href="http://dreamthemedesign.com/themes/u-design/?page_id=5" title="Feedback" class="feedback"></a></div>
    
    <div id="wrapper-1" class="pngfix">
	<div id="top-wrapper">
                <div id="secondary-navigation-bar-wrapper">
                    <div id="secondary-navigation-bar" class="container_24">
                        <div id="secondary-navigation-bar-content">

                                    <div id="secondary-nav-bar-location-3" class="grid_7">
                                        <div id="sec-nav-menu-area">
                                            <div class="secondary-menu-header"><ul id="menu-top-menu" class="menu"><li id="menu-item-3498" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page current-menu-item page_item page-item-3336 current_page_item menu-item-3498">
    Code (markup):
    Do the world a favor, back the **** away from the keyboard and take up something a bit less detail oriented like macramé. ANYONE who would allow code like that onto a production website doesn't know enough about HTML to be making websites. PERIOD!

    Must be really nice for these sleazeball shits to have no conscience and not give a **** how badly they **** others. Going to start robbing the child welfare fund and stealing toys from orphanages next?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
    deathshadow, Mar 23, 2015 IP
  11. COBOLdinosaur

    COBOLdinosaur Active Member

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    #11
    The Mafia has sales in the billions and tobacco companies make billions selling poison. Crap is crap is crap is... it does not matter how you try and spin it. Anyone using a third party theme is probably limited by ignorance, and if the pay for one then they are probably also marginally morons. Posting advice that they should buy a theme makes the poster an accomplice to the crime. It is hard enough for site owners to get a quality site built without "experts" recommending scam farms like TM where the ethics are on the same level as schoolyard drug dealers.
     
    COBOLdinosaur, Mar 23, 2015 IP
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  12. ketting00

    ketting00 Well-Known Member

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    #12
    I used to build a website for a woman who don't even know how to attache a file to an email and thought the internet is Internet Explorer. I used a make money quick scam method by choosing a template from Template Monster. She even got more mail, calls and orders from oversea customers who mentioned her products on the website.

    Doom to failure, trainwreck, boatwreck are purely your point of view. The business is doing well. And the fact is quite contrary.
     
    ketting00, Mar 23, 2015 IP
  13. COBOLdinosaur

    COBOLdinosaur Active Member

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    #13
    There is this thing called ethical behavior. That is why sleazy scammers do nickel and dime sites and get treated like whores while I do sites for fortune 500 companies, banks and health care providers. I don't need to steal $9.95 from a 100,000 suckers because I make the same thing from single clients who require honesty and integrity along with the ability to deliver quality products.

    I would rather be a professional web developer than a whore working the back alleys of theme farms. Anyone not capable of doing the work to professional standards would be better suited to a job at Taco Bell. Unfortunately there are no licensing or certifications required before someone can call themselves a web developer, which is why there is so much crap on the internet. We can't stop the flow of trash, but we can point it out and call it what it is; an abomination.
     
    COBOLdinosaur, Mar 24, 2015 IP
  14. scott2342

    scott2342 Active Member

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    #14
    Haha thanks for the replies... Love reading them, especially @deathshadow! That dudes got passion.

    Believe me I think starting from scratch would be a much better idea than buying a template but unfortunately money is an issue with these new projects. Part of me just wants to start it, part of me wants to wait, put more aside for the project and build a custom site...

    However as long as the content is great, people will still use the site which then can lead to you updating it later on.
     
    scott2342, Mar 24, 2015 IP
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  15. ketting00

    ketting00 Well-Known Member

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    #15
    Good, go hunt for a whale. I hunt for a shrimp. Helping small business grow, their family happier, is that so-call unethical.
     
    ketting00, Mar 24, 2015 IP
  16. minionnz

    minionnz Greenhorn

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    #16
    There's nothing wrong with using Wordpress. If you're worried about file size (seriously, does it matter if the site can be downloaded in <1second anyway?), there are plenty of ways to trim the fat. There are plenty of global, well-known respected organizations using Wordpress for their blogs/sites. If it's good enough for them, I'm sure it'll be good enough for you.

    Don't get too hung up on the technology used - at the end of the day, it's accessibility, speed and reliability that is important. Your visitors care about your content - not your technology stack.

    As for themeforest, it is a great place to buy themes of all kinds - including HTML templates. To imply that everyone there is a scam artist is ridiculous. Many people sell things on there in their spare time - while working full time in top organizations. Others focus on selling themes full time. There's absolutely nothing unethical about it.
    It's a business model that works well - it's never going to be as good as a custom-designed website and theme, but for what you do get, it's an amazing bargain. And because Envato set prices themselves, the race-to-the-bottom that destroyed freelancing sites such as oDesk is never going to be a problem.
     
    minionnz, Mar 24, 2015 IP
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  17. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #17
    Which is why that technology stack is important, and hence the arguments against Wordpress and off the shelf templates since to be frank, I've NEVER seen a combination of wordpress and a template (free or paid) that had all three of those; Accessibility most always being nonexistant, with a 1 in 6 chance of it being speedy and 4 in 6 chance of it being reliable -- said reliability plummeting the more mods/extensions/plugins/whatever you slap into turdpress.

    I've not seen a wordpress site I would be comfortable saddling ANYONE with; or that I'd be particularly pleased to deal with as a visitor to websites. Hell, the garbage vomited up in Frontpage or Nyetscape Composer a decade and a half ago wasn't significantly worse -- that's not a good thing.

    But again, sleazeball scammers taking advantage of the ignorance of the average "I want a website" client; dragging development practices back to the WORST of pre-strict 1997 hell.

    Depends on how badly you ***ed them, how many potential conversions just go to some website that doesn't suck... often with their shoestring budgets and unrealistic expectations, the small business is easier to scam, and easier to scam in larger numbers.

    NOT saying that's what you actually did; it IS possible -- at least in theory -- to sit turdpress on the pot and at least make it output something remotely close to sane; but the number of times I've seen that done can be counted on one hand, the person who did so is now deceased. More often than not what really happens is painting a rosy picture for a client who doesn't realize just how badly they've been shtupped. It's actually one of the reasons small businesses, particularly brick and mortars are ideal targets for this particular brand of fraud and promotion of ignorance -- since for them a web presence is an afterthought not a revenue stream. Same can be said of mega-corporations that have storefronts as well; just look at the bile most fast food joints vomit up and call a website.

    BUT, if you managed to actually convince turdpress to output semantic markup with logical document structure, using semi-fluid elastic responsive layout and built it with progressive enhancement so it gracefully degrades, with a code to content ratio below 3:1 instead of the typical ignorant halfwit 50:1 -- then sure, good job.

    I just don't see that happening from ANY off the shelf template. They ARE a scam and the only reason they continue is a stupidity borne of apathy, ignorance and wishful thinking.

    AT BEST it's just a continuation of the "credit mentality" that's pissing on society as a whole; pay more later for something you can't afford now -- such a sane and rational battle plan.

    That can only really work if your content is THAT DAMNED GOOD. For most sites, it isn't... But say, a good unique niche product that people want and can't get anywhere else? That's the real holy grail as it can make people go through any number of hardships, tasks and tests to get to it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    deathshadow, Mar 25, 2015 IP
  18. minionnz

    minionnz Greenhorn

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    #18
    With proper caching (and NGINX, CDN etc), there's no reason Wordpress can't be fast. Sure, even the core is bloated - and plugins (especially poorly coded ones) can damage reliability. But this isn't a good enough reason to avoid it altogether IMO..
    The class/markup bloat is necessary for generic theme development - I wouldn't compare it to the proprietary HTML garbage that Frontpage produced, but I get your point. In saying that, a single custom theme can completely override the HTML and even provide semantic, logical markup without too much effort.
    In my opinion, it's fine to use a theme as a starting point - to get something up and running quickly. Most small businesses know they need a site, but can't justify spending $20-30,000+ for a professionally created site. It's a valid tradeoff - get up and running quickly, then enhance/improve/upgrade as time goes on.

    I don't think it's a case of developers taking advantage of business owners - it's a case of developers filling a need. I'm certainly not going to donate weeks of my time to someone who can't afford it - I'll work within their budget, whether that's using an off-the-shelf theme or completely custom developed. And I'd definitely explain the difference.
     
    minionnz, Mar 25, 2015 IP
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  19. ketting00

    ketting00 Well-Known Member

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    #19
    He forgets about HTTP/2. Its coming to NGINX very this year-end. When bloated software like Gmail can be very fast. Why other software cannot be fast.

    Honestly, it's me that abandoned them. They request too much. When they have budget like 500, they want a 50,000 software. You never get wet feet, do you?

    Do you think you can outsmart a business owner..
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    ketting00, Mar 25, 2015 IP
  20. PoPSiCLe

    PoPSiCLe Illustrious Member

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    #20
    While @deathshadow has several valid points, what he's mostly about is functional web-coding, instead of pretty looking websites. While that is by all means a valid point, it's not really what's gonna sell this day and age. "Fancy" looking websites, that isn't too horrible to use on any platform, is gonna be a valid site - as long as the content is there too, of course. The point is that nobody cares what is in the background, what is running the site, except us geeks discussing it on forums. As long as the page loads in a decent timeframe (depending on content, < 3-4 secs), and does what the owner wants (provide a store, a contact form, other stuff) which also works, and on top of that provides a semi-easy way to update content for non tech-savvy people - Wordpress is a very good solution.
    Custom-coded solutions are for people with a strong prescence, and a decent budget - many still think of web as an after-thought, and doesn't have the funding to do custom-coded sites - especially when they also want something that looks nice and modern, with slick images etc.
    One can of course say that the themes available is horribly coded, and that Wordpress in general is a multitude of bad practices and bloated code - and it will all be true. But that's not really the issue. The issue is "is this good enough for my purpose" - if the answer is yes, it's an okay solution.

    I did a Wordpress setup not too long ago - found a theme (free), bought a plugin for taking payments via Paypal, added a couple of forms for signup and contact, copyid some content from the old site, and was up and running in a couple hours (after some revisioning on the forms, due to uncertain specs). If I was gonna code this myself, which wouldn't really have been a big problem, it would have taken at least a week, probably more (especially with the budget in question) - and that would've been too long. Not something I'm proud of, but it works, it does what it's supposed to, and the client is happy.
     
    PoPSiCLe, Mar 25, 2015 IP
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