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JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Alter2Ego, Aug 27, 2012.

  1. pladecalvo

    pladecalvo Peon

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    #21
    Quite so young fella! They dismiss so much science - but ONLY in those areas which are perceived as conflicting with their faith. They unquestioningly accept the rest. They cannot step outside the mental faith -box. They will not and cannot begin with no assumptions and start from there. They will not and cannot apply logic correctly because it does not give the answers they want. The only thing that gives the answers they want is the circular argument of all circular arguments. 'What I believe is true, therefore the truth is what I believe'
     
    pladecalvo, Aug 29, 2012 IP
  2. pladecalvo

    pladecalvo Peon

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    #22
    JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

    Vote: MYTH.

    Philo of Alexandria wrote to Caligula in 40 CE, in which he spent a whole paragraph complaining what a miserable prick Pontius Pilate had been. In the course of that denunciation he never mentions that Pilate may have killed someone who "multitudes" hailed as the Messiah, someone that had performed miracles the like of which had not been seen before (or since). Even more amazingly, Philo never mentions that the man that Pilate killed supposedly "came back to life" which would seem to be a pretty clear indication that "god or the gods" were not happy with Pilate's actions.

    Philo mentions not a single word about any 'Yeshua'. Clearly, in 40CE, the story had not been invented.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
    pladecalvo, Aug 29, 2012 IP
  3. pladecalvo

    pladecalvo Peon

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    #23
    JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

    Vote: MYTH.

    Philo of Alexandria was a Jewish philosopher who lived from around 20BCE to around 50CE. This makes him a full contemporary of the 'Jesus' character. Philo's philosophy mixed Jewish ideas with Greek thought and he was someone who maintained an active interest in the welfare of Israel. If there was a Jew wandering around who thought of himself as the Son of God and who miraculously rose from the dead, it is highly improbable that Philo would not have heard of him. Yet in more than fifty works of Philo known to us today, there is not a single allusion to Yeshua/Jesus or to his followers.
     
    pladecalvo, Aug 29, 2012 IP
  4. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #24
    ALTER2EGO -to- APOCALYPSE XL:

    Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus served under at least four Roman emperors and has been described as the greatest historian of his time. Tacitus was hostile to Christians, making what he wrote about Jesus Christ all the more credible--as he had nothing to gain from telling the truth regarding Jesus' historicity.


    IN "ANNALS," ROMAN HISTORIAN CORNELIUS TACITUS WROTE:
    http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/christianity/tacitus.html


    Notice in the quotation above that Tacitus referred to Jesus Christ's followers as "Christians." Notice too that he said the classification "Christians" came from "Christus" (a common pronunciation of "Christ") who "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius." Cornelius Tacitus wrote the above during the 2nd century AD. He thereby debunks Gomeza's erroneous claim that the term "Christian" was not used until 325 AD, which amounts to the 4th century AD. Gomeza is one of the losers who keeps insisting I'm constantly being proven wrong. As you can see, the reverse is the case. I consistently debunk his erroneous statements. Below is the loser spouting off the wrong information--as usual. You will find his full statement on Page 1 of this thread, Post 3.

     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
    Alter2Ego, Aug 30, 2012 IP
  5. Gomeza

    Gomeza Well-Known Member

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    #25
    Do you ever proofread the drivel you post?

    I said no such thing, anyone can see that your attempt to refute what I said indicates some type of rudimentary comprehension issues. Amidst the declarations of victory and the juvenile name calling, your attempts at rebuttal inevitably turn to humor, unfortunately no one is laughing with you but decidedly at you. My statement again below:

    How we have come to use the name Jesus Christ in reference to the Christian messiah is bible class 101, how is it that you do not know any of this?

    Do yourself a favor and do some reading
    : HERE
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
    Gomeza, Aug 31, 2012 IP
  6. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #26
    ALTER2EGO -to- BUSHRANGER:
    I've found from experience that those who do the most mocking are those that are the most confused where Biblical truths are concerned. Nothing you stated above has any relevance to this thread, which indicates one single thing: You have no effective rebuttal against my OP.


    Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity and the only means by which humanity can be saved from Adamic death. Therefore his role in God's heavenly kingdom is vital.


    "{10} let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of JESUS CHRIST the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. {11} This is 'the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.' {12} Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Acts 4:10-12)


    Is it any wonder that atheists/skeptics are so obsessed with trying to prove that the Bible is fallible? Their aim is to recruit/disciples from among people who are sitting on the fence, people who are already not sure what to really believe. To that end, atheists insist the Bible is nothing more than a book of fairy tales/myths. Since, according to them, the Bible is a book of myth, it stands to reason (at least in their minds) that the characters in the Bible are all part of the myth, including Jesus Christ.


    The objective of this thread is to prove that Jesus Christ existed beyond the pages of the inspired Word of God (the Judeo-Christian Bible). When presented with documentary evidence of Jesus' historical existence, atheist/skeptics use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that they never present evidence to back up their rebuttals. It's all about what they've chosen to believe from the writings of other skeptics who are "scholars."
     
    Alter2Ego, Dec 24, 2012 IP
  7. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #27
    I won't speak to the OP, but I can share with you this true story. A good friend of mine, after escaping the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses, supplied me with five copies of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, as well as a couple copies of "The Truth that leads to Eternal Life", or as you call it, "The Truth Book".

    I was personally grateful for this kind deed as I didn't have to buy toilet paper for 68 days. I've mapped it out. One can get approximately a week's worth of toilet paper out of a truth book, assuming a wipe rate of three pages per wipe, and assuming you don't have to wipe more than three or four times. Less if you use it for spank rag as well, but its way better than making a mess of your Hustler or pornography du jour. The NWTOHS uses a bit more glossy paper, so one has to use more pages per cycle. Still, I put those books to the best use they could possibly serve. There is a lot more "Truth" in Hustler magazine than you will ever find in the "Truth book".

    Merry Christmas
     
    Obamanation, Dec 24, 2012 IP
  8. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #28
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    Of course you won't speak to the OP. This conversation is for people who have basic common sense. But I've got news for you. According to the dictionary definition, all religions are cults, including the Religion of Atheism of which I suspect you are a member.



    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    That bit about the toilet paper was hysterical. I believe your true calling is live comedy. If you decide to go that route, I suggest you make the toilet paper routine your opening act. It will be a hit with your fellow rabid Jehovah's Witness haters. Trust me on that.
     
    Alter2Ego, Dec 24, 2012 IP
  9. Bushranger

    Bushranger Notable Member

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    #29
    Oh God, please use your lightning bolt on alter2ego. It's just too crazy for us believers..
     
    Bushranger, Dec 24, 2012 IP
  10. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #30
    And the dictionary definition of Pussy is "A cat, specifically a kitten". Perhaps you should do some research on what the word "cult" means today. Let me help:

    It is a perfect description of Jehovah's Witnesses. Isolation from everyone outside of the religion, who are considered "Worldly" people. Disassociation and disfellowship of people who break the rules, barring them from their friends and immediate family who remain in the cult. Not only is information controlled, college and education are discouraged as you are supposedly living in the "Final Days". Most religions do not discourage education. Most religions do not excommunicate as many people annually as they recruit (true statistic about Witnesses).

    In short, yes, Jehovah's witnesses are a cult. You are a member of a cult. An apocalyptic cult. Witnesses may not be stockpiling weapons or committing suicide en masse, but they are most definitely psychologically damaging in their practices. Other religions don't have psychological counselling and help groups for their ex-members.

    While you busily solicit new members, perhaps you should put a big disclaimer on your posts that reads something like the following:

    Warning! After becoming a witness you will be asked and pressured to discontinue association with your former friends and family members who do not convert. You will be asked to report to the congregation elders (Pastors) any incidence of drunkenness, masturbation, premarital sex, smoking, celebration of the "pagan" holidays of Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, Fourth of July, Cinco De Mayo, Halloween, or Thanksgiving. After reporting yourself (or having one of your family members report you), the consequences for engaging in any of the above behaviors will include social isolation from the only friends we permitted you to retain after conversion for a period of approximately a year.

    My act is more tragedy than satire. Some things are so truthfully sad, all we can do is laugh about them.
     
    Obamanation, Dec 25, 2012 IP
  11. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #31
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    You sound ignorant in terms of the English language, which leads me to believe you are challenged where English language and word meanings are concerned. According to your personal delusions, English words have only one single meaning, especially if the meaning suits you and you alone.

    It doesn't work that way, fella. No amount of wishful thinking on your part regarding what the word cult "means today" will change the reality. The reality is that the word cult--to this very day (12/25/2012)--applies to every single type of religion under the sun. Below is how one well-known dictionary defines "cult."


    DEFINITION OF "CULT":

    Notice that definition #2 applies to every type of religion under the sun. I will deal with the remainder of your fallacious arguments at another time.
     
    Alter2Ego, Dec 25, 2012 IP
  12. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #32
    Not sure how you missed the fact that I pointing out to you words have more than a single definition. In fact, it was in the same post that I pointed out that all the negative connotations that go along with the word "cult", the things that make "cult" a pejorative, are applicable to the Jehovah's Witness religion.

    If you are feeling your oats, why don't you defend the cultish aspects of your religion, rather than try and narrowly define the word in an effort to make your religion seem normal. In today's world, you guys are only slightly less insane than the Muslims. Why don't you spend a little time defending the social isolation practices of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
    Obamanation, Dec 26, 2012 IP
  13. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #33
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:

    There you go contradicting yourself again. If you really believed words have more than one meaning, you would not continue to harp on "all the negative connotations that go along with the word 'cult.' " The dictionary applies "cult" to every existing religion. That reality does not seem to be penetrating your obsessive hatred of Jehovah's Witnesses and your insistence that it applies "negatively" to them.
     
    Alter2Ego, Dec 29, 2012 IP
  14. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #34
    If that is the case, you should have no problem introducing yourself as a cult member. You'd probably get a better reception than introducing yourself as a Jehovah's Witness. I notice you never formally threw your cult affiliation out for public consumption, though I'm certain public disdain for your cult only convinces you all the more that you are doing the right thing. In that spirit, carry on.

    [video=youtube;ZNeq2Utm0nU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2Utm0nU[/video]
     
    Obamanation, Dec 30, 2012 IP
  15. Rukbat

    Rukbat Well-Known Member

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    #35
    Jesus of Nazareth ...

    Oops, sorry, that's a mistranslation of an early manuscript. It was actually Yeshua the Nazorite, and had absolutely nothing to do with a place. The Bible also refers to Nazarenes, a Christian sect - also nothing to do with a place.

    Add to that the fact that there's not one single mention of Jesus written during his lifetime (neither Tacitus nor Josephus was alive when Jesus was supposed to have been), and the claim gets even less worthy of acceptance. A man walked around for three years performing miracles, in a place where most of the people could read, and not one single person wrote a single word about it? Hardly even up to being decent fantasy, let alone believable.

    We know that most of the story in Christianity is made up - he couldn't have been born on December 25th when the shepherds had their flocks in the fields at night. He couldn't have been executed during a solar eclipse around the Passover. (And there's no other rational explanation for the "darkness", except that no one at the time knew what actually caused eclipses.) Luke even states that it's just a rehash of popular myth. The names of the Gospels aren't necessarily the names of the authors. (It was common in those days to name a writing after a teacher, or even after just someone who was well-known and would be accepted.) Even the year of 'his birth' wasn't invented until 527, when Dionysius Exiguus declared that Jesus was born on December 25 in the year 753 AUC (ab urbe condita).

    There's more actual evidence that the whole thing is a myth than that there was an actual Biblical Jesus (for which there's no actual evidence at all).

    Was there someone in first-century Jerusalem named Yeshua? I'd bet money on it. That's about the same as claiming that there was someone in New York City named Joe in 2012. Was he the Jesus of the Bible? There's more evidence for Bilbo Baggins or Commander Data. But the story of Jesus is pretty much the same as the stories of all the other god-men of the times.
     
    Rukbat, Jan 1, 2013 IP
  16. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #36
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    I suggest you stick with your comic routine involving the 68 days of toilet paper. You made absolutely no sense when you claimed Jehovah's Witnesses are "isolated." People do not isolate themselves by mingling with their community overtly, during which they do door-to-door preaching and stand at street corners and store fronts with Bible-based magazines. People that belong to the types of religions/cults you are describing are those that isolate themselves by having as little as possible to do with the general population. They usually live in closed communities or on cult compounds. Jehovah's Witnesses do the exact opposite. They go out of their way to make contact with the general population.

    Do yourself a favor and look up the meaning of the word "isolation." Then maybe... just maybe you will not do such an effective job of embarrassing yourself.
     
    Alter2Ego, Jan 2, 2013 IP
  17. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #37
    There is a huge difference between interacting with outsiders while working to proselytize, and striking real and meaningful relationships with outsiders based on mutual respect and/or shared interests. You know as well as I that Witnesses are discouraged in no uncertain terms from having associations outside of the organization. I thought this paper by a cultural anthropologist at Columbia summed it up nicely:

    If the above quote misrepresents Witness doctrine, by all means feel free to take a shot at setting the record straight. While you are at it, why don't you address my earlier assertion. If a witness is disfellowshipped, as happens quite frequently, are the disfellowshiped person's closest family members supposed to minimize contact with the person? A simple yes or no will suffice.

    CULT
     
    Obamanation, Jan 2, 2013 IP
  18. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #38
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    I advised you in my last response to look up the meaning of the word "isolation," after you erroneously claimed Jehovah's Witnesses are isolated--despite the fact they are constantly at people's doors preaching the good news of Jehovah God's kingdom and standing at bus stops and near store fronts with the Bible based literature. But here you are with the same wash, rinse and repeat. It seems you are convinced that if you keep presenting the same tripe, it will miraculously mean what you want it to mean.


    DEFINITION OF "ISOLATION":

    "Isolation is the state of being alone or away from others. (noun)

    An example of isolation is a prisoner in solitary confinement."

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/isolation




    Dunce cap time!
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    Alter2Ego, Jan 2, 2013 IP
  19. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member

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    #39
    ALTER2EGO -to- OBAMANATION:
    Someone that is "psychologically damaged" could not have maintained effective arguments on this forum. I have debated on more than two dozen forums where I have effectively rebutted Trinitarians and hellfire howlers from Christendom, as well as members of the Religion of Atheism. So much so, that three different Trinitarian moderators from Christendom banned me from their websites when they realized I was using the very Bible they hold dear to debunk the pagan trinity and Dante's fictional hell. Likewise, at several atheist-run forums, the regular Atheist Religionists made a point of begging moderators to get rid of me because they could not overcome my presentations during which I effectively attacked macroevolution myth and presented evidence for the existence of God.

    If I were "psychologically damaged" (being that I'm a Jehovah's Witness and according to your idiocy, all Jehovah's Witnesses are psychologically damaged), do you suppose people at so many forums would have started begging moderators to get rid me? Psychologically damaged people can easily be overcome because they are not rooted. They lack the ability to think independently. Nobody that I've debated on evolution myth and on evidence for the existence of God has ever overcome my presentations because I always quote scientific sources and other secular sources. And guess what? Most of the scientific and secular sources that I quote are in no way connected with Jehovah's Witnesses publications. Furthermore I am not an exception among Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to such strategies for discussion and debate. So there goes your idiotic claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are "psychologically damaged."


    This thread is about the historicity of Jesus Christ. You've turned it into a platform to demonstrate your rabid hatred of Jehovah's Witnesses, during which you've proven your lack of education by claiming Jehovah's Witnesses are "isolated" and stupidly claim they are "psychologically damaged." If I am an example of someone who is "psychologically damaged," what does that make you--since you clearly don't understand the true meaning of expressions such as "cult" and "isolation" and "psychologically damaged"?

    Stop embarrassing yourself by applying the improper meaning to words that line up only with your erroneous thinking. The word "cult" applies to all religions and not just Jehovah's Witnesses. The word "isolation", when speaking of people in religions, is with reference to those that live on closed compounds or in closed communities--not to individuals who constantly interact with the general public by actually going to their doors teaching the Bible, or else they stand out in the open on street corners talking to people. The expression "psychologically damaged",
    when speaking of people in religions, applies to those that are incapable of effectively rebutting arguments on their own from independent sources not connected with their religious affiliation.


    BTW: Once a person starts slinging mud at an opponent while avoiding the topic of the thread--as you have been doing since I joined this forum--that's proof positive that the individual realizes he or she is incapable of defeating the opponent intellectually. I've got you exactly where I want you. Using the quotation from the Forest Gump film that you applied to Pladecalvo a while back:
    "Run Forest, run!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    Alter2Ego, Jan 2, 2013 IP
  20. Rukbat

    Rukbat Well-Known Member

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    #40
    1. Totally false, as evidenced by the posts of many deranged people on many forums.

    2. You're about the only one who thinks that your posts are "effective".

    Posting nonsense that convinces only your ilk and "effectively rebutting" someone aren't the same thing.

    Atheism is as much a religion as bald is a hair style and not collecting stamps is a hobby.

    Probably for being an ass and violating the rules of their forums.

    You're confusing your presentations and their gag reflexes.

    If you can produce objective evidence that any god has ever objectively existed, you'll be the first human being to do so. (Atheists aren't interested in your logical fallacies that you call evidence.)

    Since religious belief is a mental disease, all theists are psychologically damaged.

    That's precisely why they want to get rid off you.

    They post only things they copy from someone else. Oh, just like you do.

    No parent has ever "overcome" a 3 year old's "presentation" that there's a monster under his bed either - and for the same reason. Nonsense doesn't warrant "overcoming".

    No, you've all been taught the same nonsense.

    And there's no actual evidence that the Biblical Jesus ever existed. It would be nice if you limited your posts in this thread to such evidence. (No, quoting the Bible isn't evidence that what's in the Bible is true.)
     
    Rukbat, Jan 2, 2013 IP