Sharia in the UK

How far is the Queen away from the Burka?

 

Scary stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16522447
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uburb-worrying-social-moral-implications.html

 

Scary?? You do realise that the Jews have their own courts in the UK called 'Beth Din' don't you? Should Jews be allowed their religious courts whilst Muslims are forbidden theirs?

For the record and before you start accusing me of being Muslim, I disagree with both. I think that you should abide by the laws of the country that you live in, not demand the laws of the country you have left.

From the Mail.

"But the vast majority of British Muslims are offended by such hardline rules. Mohammed Illyas, general secretary of Waltham Forest mosque, has stated clearly: ‘We condemn these kinds of views, and if they come to the mosque preaching this kind of thing, they would be thrown out."

Don't worry Devil...the nasty Muslims won't be climbing through your bedroom window to slit your throat while you sleep.

...and don't forget. It wasn't too long ago when Christians were doing the same thing.

 

Do you not see a difference when people are posting banners telling everyone that they must abide by religious rules? People are free to mediate their own disputes however they want. It is the posting of signs and declaring whole areas subject to religious laws that they want everyone to demand everyone follow.

Not surprising that you would bring Jews into the discussion. You seem preoccupied by Jews.

What an odd atheist Welshman you are defending the imposition of Sharia on non-Muslims - which is what this thread was speaking to. You sound more like a two-bit hypocrite to me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xtremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html

 

Dude, if you had actually bothered to find out a little bit about this before jamming your foot in your mouth, you would know that police and council officials are ripping them down as fast as they are going up. They are ILLEGALLY being put up by a small fringe group and their views are not the views of the majority of UK Muslims not are they accepted by the UK government. The police and council workmen are patrolling the areas to prevent them being put up. The people who are doing it are committing a crime.

Here...educate yourself before making yourself look foolish.
http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....in_posters_declaring_sharia_law_zone_1_979146

No more than you are preoccupied by Muslims.

What imposition of Sharia Law on non-Muslims am I defending?? No such law exists to defend. I know of no imposition of Sharia law. Could you tell me where in the UK such a law against non-Muslims is operating?

 

Lol dont be daft the UK will never have Sharia laws like ever

sharia laws are biased towards men and there is no prove of these laws as the beloved prophet was an humble man , so some of these laws are just made up by men

as most of them are not in the quran

 

Feckin' hilarious isn't it...but you have to realise that now people like Browntwn and Obamamouth no longer have bogeymen 'reds under the bed, socialist, pinko commie fags' to be obsessed with, they need something else to castigate. The new bogeymen are Muslims.

 

Great, so everyone agrees it was absurd to put up such flyers proclaiming that Islamic law should be followed in those areas. We all agree that that they should be torn down and that such laws would be absurd to be foisted upon people who chose not to subject themselves to Islamic law.

Why again did you post on this thread bringing up Jews? You are so transparent.

 

Those flyers are as absurd as your posts.

 

Well I certainly do.

I was pointing out the fact that there are already 'religious' courts set up in the UK for Jews and as such the precedent has been set and it would be undemocratic, and illegal, to allow religious courts for one religion and not for another. As far as I can see, providing that Muslims follow the proper channels, it will be very difficult for the UK government to resist any legal attempts to set up Sharia courts but it will be along the lines of the present Beth Din courts for Jews where minor family disputes or disputes against neighbours are dealt with.

Believe me, there is no way that ANY UK government will advocate the sort of Sharia law that you are imagining whereby we have public executions and floggings at Saturday markets because someone has been seen smoking or dancing in the streets! Get real man!

As I said, as far as I am concerned, there should be on law in Britain...British law. Not Sharia, not Jewish, not Hindu. If you live in Britain you abide by British law. I live in Spain and abide by Spanish law....thus it should be.

 

Awesome. So why did you have to bring Jews to the discussion, when the thread is clearly about sharia in the UK? You could of posted something along the lines of "yeah, that's pretty messed up, but it's illegal and I'm against it. They should abide the British law". But instead, the first thing you post is along the lines of 'but those j00z do the same thing!'.

Anyway, as I've said, scary stuff. I hope UK will get its shit together and won't let sharia become bigger than it already is.

 

What the OP and your post #2 is 'clearly' about is a feeble and uneducated attempt to convince people that Muslims are taking over in the UK and demanding that they are subject to their own Sharia law rather than UK law. What I was pointing out is that religious courts are already allowed in the UK for Jews so you can hardly complain if Muslims want the the same. I mentioned Jews because, apart from a few small Sharia courts that deal solely with domestic disputes, they are the only people that have their own courts. If Hindus, Buddhists, Shintos, Zoroastrians, Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Protestants, Catholics etc etc had their own courts in the UK I would have mentioned those too. For goodness sake, get that chip off your shoulder. Only a complete and utter moron would read an anti-Jew agenda into me simply saying 'Jews already have their own religious courts in the UK'...IT IS A MATTER OF FACT.

Imagine if I started a thread about 'Spanish people are bad drivers' and you made a post saying 'The Italians are bad drivers too'? Do you think I, or anyone else for that matter would be ranting at you about the thread being about Spanish drivers so why are you mentioning Italians? Get real pal!

I know why you are doing it of course. You are determined to paint me as a 'Jew hater'. You have tried to do so in other threads and failed miserably and now, all you have to do is see the word 'Jew' in one of my posts and you desperately jump on it, like a drowning man desperately jumping on any flimsy straw that floats past in the hopes that you can score a point by showing me as anti-Semite. Well tough luck pal....you only show your own idiocy! As is your usual modus operandi, you read the words, don't stop to think what the words are saying and then interpret them to say what you WANT them to say rather than what they do say. Please try harder to READ what the words are saying.

I also find it ironic that you should imply that I am against Jews when you are spamming the forum with a sickening amount of anti-Muslim material. Does that prove you to be ant-Muslim?

 

There's a difference between islamic sharia and Jewish beth din, no? A very important difference is that Jewish beth din respects the secular law. They go according to the "law of the land" principle, giving precedence to country's laws whenever there's a conflict between the Jewish law and the "law of the land".

How does sharia law handle that? That's simple. sharia courts seek to make their rulings legally enforceable, and try to claim legal status in the UK.
Why is it scary stuff? Because:

• sharia laws don't get their authority from upholding human rights and being voted by a democratic legislature.
• sharia courts don't take care to ascertain the facts my means of pre-trial witness interviews and cross-examination of witnesses. Modern types of evidence such as DNA is not admitted by sharia - you only need 4 male witnesses and that's it!
• and many more.

Read this article for more on the subject.

I'm not determined to paint you as a Jew hater. You're excelling at this job on your own. Wouldn't it be just easier to admit you dislike Jews?

I disagree with you on the spamming part. This isn't spamming. I'm encouraging discussions on important issues related to islam.

 

No, you are wrong. The rules, procedures, decisions and judgement of the Beth Din can be enforced by secular courts in the same manner as those of a secular arbitration association. So in other words, decisions of the courts can over-rule secular law provided all parties involved agree.

Predictably, wrong again. Sharia law courts can apply to make their verdicts officially binding under UK law in cases such as divorce, financial disputes, disputes between neighbours and other domestic squabbles.... which is EXACTLY the same as Beth Din courts BUT...the cases can only go outside UK law providing BOTH sides of the dispute agree. In that case, under the 1996 Arbitration Act the Sharia court's decisions can then be enforced by the county courts or the High Court PROVIDED all parties to the dispute agree to over-rule UK secular law AND the County and High Court agree....which, if you read above, is exactly the same as Beth Din.

So, to clarify it for you. In the case of Sharia courts, they can....
1. Only rule in MINOR domestic or financial disputes and...
2. Only operate if ALL parties in the dispute AGREE to be bound by Sharia law.

Do you understand now? Don't be afraid. If you go to the UK on holiday, you won't be arrested for smoking in the street, dancing, singing or wearing shorts in public, tried by a Muslim court and then executed in some market square. So please, put away your chronic fear and hatred of Muslims.

...and what does all that matter to you or I or anyone else that is ..
1. Not Muslim
2. Does not agree to have a Sharia court mediate in a dispute we are having with our neighbour regarding the leaves from his tree blowing into our garden??

From the UK Ministry of Justice:
"Sharia law is not part of the law of England and Wales and the Government has no intention of making any change that would conflict with British laws and values. 'In all arbitrations, decisions will be enforceable by the English courts if the requirements of the 1996 Arbitration Act are satisfied. If any decisions by these Tribunals were illegal or contrary to public policy under English law, they would not be enforceable."

...so unless the government of the USA has any plans to have Sharia law overrule USA law...you are worrying about nothing.

Yet more evidence (not that more were needed) that you just don't read the words. You prefer instead to 'interpret' them as you see fit, to suit your own agenda.

...and I disagree with you about me hating Jews so ......?

No, you are trawling the internet to find ANYTHING that will show Muslims in a bad light and posting it up. Do you encourage discussions on important issues relating to Christians or Buddhist or French people, Germans, Spanish, Zoroastrians, Taoists, Moonies, JW's etc. No you don't. Your Islamophobia rises to the top every time...but then, scum always will. You are obsessed with it...to the extent that you think Britain is a place where people are being tried by Muslim courts and having their hands chopped off. For goodness sake...come on down to the real world will you?

British law is absolute and must remain so....if they don't want a revolution on their hands

 

The religious bodies and religious courts that act within the presiding law of the nation and are subordinate to those national laws are fine. Islamic "courts" that provide responses on civil litigation wherein both sides agree to use of that court and to follow its guidelines are fine, again so long as the rulings don't violate the law of the land. The same with the orthodox jewish courts.

When the effort to establish a law, and in this case a sharia law that directly conflicts with the law of the land, and in the own words of one of its strongest proponents wants to eliminate the law of the land, simply needs to be 100% abolished.

From an article about sharia law in Britain quoting the words of one of its most ardent followers

That is an example of a group that simply should be squashed, if not exiled or jailed. They are a danger to the nation at large, and dramatically different than religious courts that act within the guidelines of national law.

 

Jewish courts do not rule on the basis of a law that Jews are laboring to impose upon the whole of British society. Sharia courts are.
Sharia courts are basically giving illegal advice. These courts are not operating within the same disciplines as the beth din.

Example:
The beth din acknowledge that 'the law of the land is the law.' and a rabbi cannot perform a synagogue marriage ceremony unless a registrar is present to simultaneously register the marriage under English law. Imams and mosques are performing marriage ceremonies that are not registered under English law.

Sharia courts also don't seem to have any system of record keeping and are not transparent.

Read more about it here.

The fact of the matter is that muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option. [read more about it]
This is just the beginning. Scary stuff.

I encourage discussions on important issues of my personal preference. My personal preference is to talk about the issues of islam. You want to talk about Christians or Buddhist - go ahead and do that. I also notice you are fond of spinning the ball to other courts every time we talk about muslims or islam. You constantly use diversion tactics - 'but the j00z are doing the same!', 'but why don't you look at Christians?', 'but why don't you talk about Buddhists'. You can't seem to discuss within the borders of the topics, which are about islam after all.

Are you implying that I am scum?

I don't think that Britain is a place where people are being tried by muslim courts and have their hands chopped off. I've never said that.
It does seem that UK is already establishing ground for such a reality in the future, unfortunately.

 

It does not need to be abolished...for the simple fact of...IT DOES NOT EXIST. You can't abolish what does not exist. There is no legal procedure or precedent to establish such a law. You are arguing against something that does not even exist!!

What Choudary and other Islamic extremists want and what they get are two entirely different things. For your information. From 14 January 2010, Choudary's organisation was proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000, making membership illegal, and punishable by imprisonment. Does it sound to you from that that the UK is about to give into Islamic extremists like Choudary?

Dude...are you for real here? Only yesterday I spend a long time explaining to you that the tiny, insignificant group that is putting up these posters and advocating Sharia law are doing so illegally. I explain to you that police and council officials are ripping down the posters as quick as they are being put up and prosecuting those that are doing it. I have also given you links to reputable articles that told you that the MAJORITY of Muslims in Britain do not want Sharia law, yet here you are, yet again, telling us that we should do what is already being done! In fact, IT'S THE VERY SAME BLOODY ARTICLE THAT YOU POSTED YESTERDAY IN POST 4 AND I ADDRESSED IN POST 5. For goodness sake..READ THE BLOODY POSTS!

Madre mia!!! Has your hatred for Muslims become such an obsessive compulsion that you can't even remember what is being discussed from one day to the next????

 

You're just not getting it are you. Surely you can't be this dim. I've laid it out for you as simply as I can ...and it still isn't sinking in with you is it? I'll try one more time:

SHARIA LAW IS THERE FOR THOSE THAT WANT IT. IT DOES NOT AND CAN NOT OVER-RIDE BRITISH LAW UNLESS ALL PARTIES TO THE DISAGREEMENT AGREE THAT THEY WOULD RATHER BE TRIED BY SHARIA LAW (for minor disagreements) THAN BRITISH LAW AND ONLY THEN, PROVIDED THAT THE DECISION OF THE COURT DOES NOT CONTRAVENE BRITISH LAW.

Now let me try to explain what that means in reality.....

If you and I were neighbours and Muslims and you accused me of stealing some apples off your tree and I insisted that I didn't do it, we could opt BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT to have our disagreement arbitrated by a Sharia court. Please note the highlighted words "BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT". That means that if you wanted the case to be heard by a Sharia court and I wanted the case heard in a British secular court then MY preference would take precedence because secular law over rides religious law in the UK. So, assuming that we both agreed to be arbitrated by a Sharia court, let's say that the court decided that I DID steal your apples. It does not mean that the court can now sentence me to 50 lashes or to have one of my hands chopped off in the market square for stealing....because THAT would contravene British law.

Please tell me you understand now because trying to get through to you is like trying to teach nuclear physics to my cat. I'm rapidly losing the will to live here!!

Well they are not actually but you probably know even less about the Qur'an than you do about Sharia law in the UK.

What's scary is that people like you killed 6 million people in concentration camps during WWII. Your attitude to Muslims is no different to the attitude the Nazis had towards the Jews. What also 'scary' is that people like you are allowed to vote!

Of course! That's because you have a very unhealthy hatred of all things Muslim.

I also notice that when you are stuck for a rebuttal you start to put your own personal interpretation onto what people are saying rather than paying attention to what they are ACTUALLY saying. I have never said "but the j00z are doing the same", nor would I be so disrespectful to refer to them as "j00z'...you clearly don't share that respect. I have explained what was meant when I referenced Beth Din courts. If that's not good enough for you, that's just too bad. Frankly, I couldn't give a feck any more!

Why don't you go and read the ACTUAL words again instead of yet again, putting your own, personal and erroneous interpretation on it. GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN AND THIS TIME, READ WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS RATHER THAN WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY! If you need me to break it down to a more simpler form, I will.

Just how the hell do you come to that conclusion? Do you still not understand what I have spent hours explaining to you??

 

Ahh, there is our great humanitarian warrior, defending the poor and defenseless proponents of Sharia. More comedy.

Tell me, if Sharia would only be a community pact, binding only within the scope of British law, how would it impact the more than 50% of Muslims in the UK who have no desire for Sharia, many of whom are vehemently opposed to it? Would we call them anti-Islamic, or would it be a set of codes that is only applicable to those who wish to be bound by it? What about those same moderate Muslims living in neighborhoods where fundamentalist youth like the one at the top of this thread are telling people how it is?

 

my oh my. You are one angry dude. As I only published once in this thread....you must be so friggin mad you can't read who says what and when.

terrorists in general are crazy angry. It appears supporters are similarly full of anger and crazy.