Unemployment rate hits 9.7%

All of which have been an utter failure.

And all were instigated/created by their previous predecessors. Carter/Clinton. If you are not old enough to remember, I'd suggest doing a little research or talking to people that lived it.

You drink way too much Kool-aid my friend.

I think you are missing the point. You are talking about producing the road using funds that were taken from people that produce the JOBS and the MONEY for which those in their employ are able to produce the road.

I really cannot be any clearer here, can I?

 

Shame on you. If this is how you REALLY think, through a lens of ugly extremist political bias, then shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you write that garbage to me. You've just proven your openly biased ignorance. You've just proven your intolerance and contempt for anyone that disagrees with you. If you need to insult anyone that ever disagrees with you, if you are that intolerant an individual, then it proves that you are more interested in political prejudice than learning the truth.

You know, this is what happens when I try to make a balanced argument...

Nobody here has bothered to watch the Frontline episode - have you? I've deliberately NOT quoted right-wing Foxnews. Instead, I've cited PBS, an outlet known for repeatedly being left-wing, AND the government's Bureau of Labor Statistics.

In return, I see others not only quoting left-wing CNN, I see a blatant cherrypicking of sources and cries of "the extremist right wing". Well, if you insist on thinking in ugly terms of "extremists", and insist on turning this into NOT a search for truth, but slamming people with bigoted labels and a trashing of political opinions, well, guess what - you don't care about truth, you care about cherry-picking your sources and ignoring anything that doesn't fit your own admitted bias, right?

And, if you can't make your points in short, concise posts and instead make reading your posts like a long, convoluted homework assignment, then maybe you don't really understand the issues at hand. At the very least, if you can't make your point succinctly, you don't understand your audience and maybe you also don't understand the subject.

Unemployment didn't skyrocket until this year. Unemployment is the highest it's been in over 25+ years because the Democrats broke the system. Because the Democrats broke the system, banks aren't lending. Banks aren't lending because they don't trust the Democrats. Banks don't trust the Democrats because the Dems illegally forced a private company into a corporate buyout AND overturned a history of thousands of years of contract law on loans.

These are the facts.

 

Corwin, I do not think any of the people calling you Glen Beck or Rush have ever even listened to or watched them. So long as the Kool-Aid is sweet, they just keep drinking and repeating what they are told, not what they have observed with their own eyes.

It'd suck to be so closed off from reality.

 

Again, Mia, what do you produce besides hot air?

 

Wow, what an amazing response. You really got me there.

 

No, that is your opinion, and the only source you have cited is on TV show.

You know what they say about opinions - everybody has one. It's just that some are better thought out, and more supported by facts than others are...

 

Yet another astute response by the resident neocon...

Feeling a need to inflate your post count this morning?

 

I assume you are referring to this post: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=12642081&postcount=104

Speaking in the first person again?


Johnny, you got any actual cognitive lucid response to my response, or are you going to keep insulting everyone here with meaningless posts.

I've been on the forum since 1998, I hardly think I need any help getting my post count up.

 

Mia, I have tried to gain clarification about how you use the word "produce".

You refuse to provide that clarification - no surprise since every thread you participate in degenerates to the same insults about kool-aid and such.

Sitting at a desk posting to forums is producing little more than hot air which is blown off the CPU's of your servers by little fans. The "production" is being done by those that built the servers (and that little fan), by those that maintain the servers and associated infrastructure, by those that develop and maintain the software and websites (you really should update yours, far too many broken links), those that produce sales and new clients, etc.

Again, what exactly is it that you produce?

 

In the financials, it started in 2007. It just may have taken a year or so until it was really felt in the real economy.

Nouriel Roubini describes the crisis of August 2007 as a credit crisis and credit crunch and explains it is not just a liquidity crisis.

All the economic problems didn't happen in a day as corwin thinks. And you can't blame it on any one person or even party. Looking at everything through the prism of partisan politics is intellectually stifling.

 

I am talking about the production of wealth, not a product or service. The end result of which equals jobs. You do not produce wealth and jobs by re-distributing wealth in order to produce a product or service.

The difference in semantics is capitalism vs. communism. I'm not talking about later.

 

Wealth can be defined many ways, but all would be a byproduct of production of goods.

Personal/corporate wealth does not produce jobs. It produces wealthy people.

In fact, "wealth" (as you use it) is such an abstract concept it defies any real meaning.

I would ask again, what do you produce?

I would also ask what government services you utilize - like roads and highways for example.

You want the freedom to suckle at the teat of the commonwealth while protecting your own greedy self interests. What part of the connection do you not get?

Your philosophy would quickly drive us back to the stone age - oh, it already is!

 

Run a business some day and then ask me the difference. Explaining this to you is like trying to train a leaf to talk.

 

I have and I do. You, in your frustration, have done some sleuthing, so you know that already though.

Let me ask again, what exactly is it that you produce? Seems like a pretty simple and straightforward question. Why so resistant to answering it? Perhaps you productive years are already behind you? Is it true that you haven't produced anything of meaning in years, and that you simply exploit others while protecting your own little hoard of goodies while inflating your self importance via imbecilic posts on an Internet forum?

How sad...

Why don't you take some time to run Xenu on the mia site and fix those bad links. It would be a much more "productive" use of your time.

 

Only one person here both sad and frustrated.

You mean all three of them? All recently removed demos.

I'm obviously not making any headway here. I'd suggest you google "distribution of wealth" and "production of wealth."

Distribution is the division of the results of production among the persons or classes of persons who have contributed to production.

When you are finished, I'd then reference the above statement and look up the meaning of RE-DISTRIBUTION.

I'd research communism, scientific socialism, and Marxism as well. Hopefully this will help.

 

Logic:

In a perfect world I'd stay away from political blame. There is no perfect world. Its clearly not here in DP P&R.

To me the underlying issue is that there is a prevaling package of political theory that has become incorporated into economic theory and practises.

It sounds great. Leave businesses alone so they can create jobs and make money. In practise it regularly screws up.

I saw it first hand through the 1980's leading up to that recession. I've presented an exceptional graph, a source like that is hard to find. It clearly demonstrates how demand and supply got out of kilter over time. Take a look at the 2nd page graph in this link....http://www.fairfaxcountyeda.org/site...ns/ye08rer.pdf

Here are my first hand experiences:

1. In the early 1980's as a commercial real estate agent I picked up Savings and Loans as clients. The industry was devastated by the high interest rates of the late 1970's and early 1980's.

2. New legislation established to save the industry, which was the primary source, at the time, for residential real estate loans, changed everything they did. They could merge with other institutions, they could cross state lines, and most critically they were allowed to initiate commercial real estate loans, and commercial real estate construction loans.

The industry was the recipient of easy and relatively low cost money...along with an opportunity to make loans in commercial real estate wherein they could make a lot of profit if everything went well.

3. Due to the mergers, acquisitions and moving across state lines...they had a lot of internal real estate activity. I ultimately picked up a couple as clients. In fact for 2 of them I was their "real estate department" for a period of time. I sold excess properties, leased new space for their expansions, sublet excess space, etc.

4. They weren't huge organizations. When they started making loans I got invited inside as a knowledgeable "consultant".

5. They had no experience in the commercial RE lending area. They had new personnel and were creating guidelines.

6. I got to see loans first hand. I had already sold land for development deals. I had a great fix on market rental rates. I was actually an excellent source.

7. Not one of the loan deals penciled out to make sense. The rents couldn't cover the loans. Take a look at that graph on the second page. Every year through the 1980's in that particular submarket in the DC region and throughout the region, vacancy rates were increasing. Demand wasn't meeting supply. Prices (rents) were flat. (Meanwhile the buildings were getting more expensive to construct)

8. The lending officers got pissed off at me. They drove me out of the meetings.

Meanwhile I got to see a microcosm through several deals of what happened across the nation, thousands of times.

It ended up causing a nationwide recession. In the commercial real estate world it caused a depression.

It was unregulated bs. The S&L's were subject to special lenient accounting rules that allowed them to book profits. Meanwhile the buildings even when leased couldn't cover the loans.

Take a look at the graph. Vacancy rates soared to 15 then 18% in that submarket. That submarket has historically been dramatically healthier with lower vacancy rates than the vast majority of the nation.

The way I learned office building development was that you made your money on the last 10% of occupancy. It obviously wasn't occurring.

If that had been a single business overseeing its own lending, it would have pulled back the cash. If it had been a household it would have pulled back the cash.

In the political environment, though, the common thread from the right wing is....keep the government out. It screws up things.

Well the government regulators kept out...and the market imploded and screwed up things. The result was a serious recession.

The same thing happened this decade. Relaxed lending standards started in the late 1990's exploded in the 2000's and imploded as a result.

If there is one lesson to be learned it is to oversee the financial/real estate industries. They are a deadly combo.

Logic: As you referenced the existing crisis and problems didn't occur because of the Bank of America deal, or any subsequent actions.

The crisis built up years before the bank of America deal. The only reason that deal was made was because there was a crisis. The only reason the govt stepped in on existing loans was because there was an existing crisis.

When the right wing starts pointing the fingers at Dems for the BofA issues or anything like that...they are ignoring how the crisis occurred in the first place.

Its political demagoging rather than dealing with real issues. Its ultimately dangerous. It ignores the lessons of the past. The sad thing is they were relatively recent lessons. Its dangerous how loud and effective the demagogery is in that something that occurred so recently and had such a devastating impact is totally lost on the population.

 

If that is the attention to detail you practice, then no wonder you are at such a loss in these discussions...

That should get you started...

Regarding wealth, and it's distribution, you might start here

Oh, almost forgot - what exactly is it that you produce?

 

You can only give people in poverty so much before you kill all desire for them to try and get it themselves. There has to be a balance and equal distribution of wealth is NOT the answer.

Would you work 40 hours a week to make $16K a year when you could make the equivalent of $10K from the government doing nothing? Most would have to think about it. The bottom 1/3rd already either get all their income tax back in a refund or actually MAKE money through government subsidys. I don't know how far we can take it before killing everyone's desire to provide or even get rich, one of the biggest driving factors of hard work and success (as well as fraud and scams lol).

Remember the studies done on poverty level people getting a lot of money either through the lotto or other ways? They become poor again extremely fast. While at the same time, people with drive to have more like Donald Trump can lose it all and come back from nothing. It's not like these people are just hording cash, they're spending it creating businesses. While some people are making a ton of money, they're also paying ou the butt in taxes http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6 (top 1% 40.42% of taxes in 2007). It's not that it's just a higher amount they pay, but they actually have to pay a higher percentage of their income. I never understood that even as I cleaned toilets and showers at a truck stop for minimum wage trying to get somewhere in life without any debt.

 

I also think that they aren't interested in understanding the truth - they'd rather try to make themselves APPEAR right.

Especially when they don't understand the difference between facts, and opinions.

 

This is largely a function of training, not temperment.

For all its faults, this is one area where "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" makes some valid points. "I work for my money" vs. "My money works for me" etc. The sad fact is, most Americans are trained (indocrinated) to be consumers - a largely subserviant role that guarantees their wealth will be bled off and given to others.

I know some folks that have made a LOT of money and have little or nothing to show for it. I have a brother whose business was making several million a year - before he went bankrupt in the current downturn - yet all he had was expensive toys and a bit of real estate. Now he is left with the house he lives in, a divorce and a hefty child support payment.

He had learned how to make money, but he never really understood wealth - perhaps like some in this forum?

One of the problems in these discussions is that it is a systems problem that can not effectively be discussed in small fragments.

Distribution of wealth reflects opportunity, education, and a bit of luck. I do not support redistributing wealth in the sense Mia uses the word. I do think that those who have derived personal wealth from the commonwealth have a responsibility to insure that equal opportunity, access to education and suitable infrastructure to insure quality of life are maintained. They fail to do so at their own peril.