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legal issues with game review blog?

Discussion in 'Legal Issues' started by olddocks, Jun 15, 2009.

  1. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #21
    Already admitted that I misquoted and stood firm on the point that I meant to express. How many times do I need to say it? My answers were based on the "uploading videos" part of the question...You said I was wrong, I proved that you didn't know what you were talking about, and now you want to nit pick me because you feel stupid.
    I don't know how many times I said that images are put out for the purposes of promotion and are fine to use...but you cannot create your own. Or create your own videos.
    I said plain as day :
    PLAIN AS DAY!!!

    I really don't see where you are having a problem understanding what I meant..I was very clear and very thorough with my answers.

    Not good enough for you ?

    OK, you win. You are a better man, and I gave out bad information. Everything I said was wrong and the OP should follow the advice of everyone who says that they do it, so everything should be fine.:rolleyes:

    It's really getting to be pointless trying to offer advice in these threads when all it does is become a big dick swinging contest from people who didn't even start the thread.
    I guess temperance comes with age.

    I told you, if you are going to blatantly tell someone that they don't know what they are talking about, you had better be right..it takes a lot of balls to call someone out, and then be pissed that you were wrong about it.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  2. wibblet

    wibblet Banned

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    #22
    In other words you're fine don't worry about what hmansfield is talking about I've been in the VG bloggin/news business for over 5 years now and I haven't had problems, Heck I have had companies send me promotional demos to review their games.
     
    wibblet, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  3. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #23
    Stop giving him bad advice. What you get away with, and what is legal are 2 COMPLETELY different things.
    Tell him the truth and let him make his own decision. You don't tell someone "go ahead" just because you don't see a problem with it.

    In essence, what you are saying is "Don't worry about what the law is, and don't worry about the words that came out of the Entertainment Lawyers mouth concerning Video Games and Copyright in that interview...I've been doing this for 5 years and I've never had a problem..I know more than he does".

    You know what...forget it:p This is like talking to preschoolers.

    OP, I hope you found the information that you are looking for, either what is legal, or what you think you can get away with because other people do it.

    By the way wibblet, it's a shame that after 5 years you have only had a few promos sent to you for review. Maybe if you did it the right way, your mailbox would be as full is mine is everyday.

    There is a right way to do things, and then there is just getting away with stuff. Apparently, you just get away with stuff and tell other people to do it too. Misery loves company.

    Consider this thread, unsubscribed. I can't laugh anymore at peoples arrogance and ignorance....it's gets sad after while.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  4. kashirakaze

    kashirakaze Banned

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    #24
    I have been for 3 years as well. I wonder how long hmansfield has been doing it?
     
    kashirakaze, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  5. wibblet

    wibblet Banned

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    #25
    yeah I was wondering the same thing
     
    wibblet, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  6. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #26
    hmansfield,

    The majority of posts offering advice in the legal section are dead wrong. I did not question your entire post or say to ignore everything you wrote. I took issue with a particular point of advice, which was your telling him that his proposed use of screen shots was "blatant infringement". It was a rather simple point and one you have conceded. You seem to be getting in a huff because someone dared to challenge your legal advice. If you don't want to put your advice up to scrutiny perhaps posting in a public forum is not a good idea.
     
    browntwn, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  7. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #27
    Long enough to know the difference between copyright and fair use.

    Music is not much different than gaming, and in the beginning I dealt with the same questions about what was legal to use and decided that I would rather have the companies on my side and work with me, rather than piss on them to do what ever I wanted.

    You can get away with a lot of things online, but when someone new asks, I am going to give them the real answer of what is right, and let them make their own decisions..they same way I learned.

    I have been on the receiving end of a violation notice, so I know what is possible no matter how big or small you are, and I am not tell going someone who is looking for help and guidance from experience "not to worry about it".

    64 websites and blogs latter, I think I may have learned a few things about what is acceptable online and what is not, and how to get companies on your side.

    I will admit, I knew the answer to that question from the very beginning. I saw that video a long time ago and investigated more way back then...so anyone who disagreed with me was doomed from the start:D
     
    hmansfield, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  8. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #28
    Forget my advice. I'm just some dude on a forum. Without documentation, of proof, I would take everything with a grain of salt anyway

    But I posted up the law and linked to an interview with a well respected entertainment copyright lawyer talking about the exact same thing with the question clearly answered, and to have someone continue to tell the OP to do it anyway is ridiculously asinine.

    I love a vigorous discussion, and I don't get in "huffs". I though it was answered plain as day. I hate seeing people get bad advice when they ask for help, that's all.
    If you are going to steer people down a path that you know to be illegal, but tolerable, at least be responsible enough to tell them the entire truth, not just "I've been doing it 5 years and have never had a problem"...that is juvenile. I have been J-walking for 20 years and never got a ticket, but if someone asks me if it is a ticket able offense, I'm going to tell them the truth
     
    hmansfield, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  9. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #29


    Where did I tell them they could do anything? I replied only because you did give bad advice. I corrected your erroneous advice. You keep replying to me, but the simple fact is that you told him using screen shots was blatant infringement - when it is not. I did what you claim to be doing, responding because I hate to see people get bad advice.

    As for how many years this and that, what does any of that have to do with me? I never said they would get away with it. I never advised the op to do or not do anything, I simply corrected your blatantly wrong statement. It seems like you replying to me about things other people on this thread advised him to do. Not really sure why you are complaining to me about the other people who gave him bad advice. Again, all I did was correct something you wrote - which was dead wrong - which you have since agreed with me on.

    What qualifies you to be telling me what is good or bad legal advice anyway?
     
    browntwn, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  10. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #30
    Why do you keep harping on that when I have said repeatedly, "I Was not talking about that", "I mistakenly misquoted the wrong section of the question when I answered" and went on to say exactly what I meant from the very beginning of the first word I typed ?

    Plain as fricken day.
    There is no way you are this daft.

    The bottom line is, It is illegal to post videos of game play on You Tube.
    Now do you have a problem that this is the case, or do you want to continue to nit picking something completely insignificant.
    In case you really can't read, AGAIN here is the very first thing I posted:

    I NEVER said using images are illegal . I SAID MAKING YOUR OWN IMAGES AND VIDEOs was. I fully concurred that images are made readily available for promotion.

    How are you constantly putting words in my mouth...just to argue ?
    Even when I attempted to clarify it, you still are acting like a senile old woman repeating the same thing over and over again.
    That is not what I said, and you know that is not what I meant.

    What is this the Twilight Zone ?
    Am I writing English too clearly ?
    What about this do you not understand ?

    How many time do you need it typed. That not what I said. It's not what I meant. and it is not what I implied.

    Now is someone else going to say that I said using images was copyright infringement ? Then let me be clear AGAIN. Some Images are readily available for the press to use.
    You can either use those, or ask for permission to use others, but you cannot just make up your own images of other peoples copy written stuff and post them online.

    Just in case you really don't know "Photos" are the same as "Images".
     
    hmansfield, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  11. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #31
    You continue to say that you can't use your own screen shots. That is simply incorrect as a blanket statement of the law.

    You are making too simplistic a reading of copyright law by saying that any copying or use of copyright material is infringement and is not allowed. The law is much more nuanced than you understand or are willing to admit.

    As cautionary advice, you are certainly advising them in a way that will avoid problems. However, in doing so, you are also advising them that it is illegal to use screen shots that they may have every right to use. There are many uses of self-created screen shots that would be completely legal - especially on a site set up for review and commentary on video games.
     
    browntwn, Jun 17, 2009 IP
  12. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #32
    ....and I am telling you that technically, you cannot take other peoples work and post it up. I don't care if you call it a review site of what ever. Just because you claim to be doing reviews, doesn't give you free rein to take and use what ever you want.

    The reason that they distribute promotional photos and clips is because that is what they would like to be shown...same as movie trailers...you cant just decide to post up images of the ending of the movie just because you call it a review site. That is why they have protection and why they enforce it. Copyright holders don't know one blogger from the next and if it were as legal as you say then bloggers would be posting up spoilers, endings, and all kinds of stuff that the producers don't want shown. You can't decide what they want shown..they tell you.

    If you want to do it the right way, you will use the images provided, or ask for permission to use others. It's not your work, you can't make the decision for other people on what you are going to show of their work just because you call yourself a review site.

    The biggest corporations follow the same rules. They show the clips and photos that are distributed for promotion. You don't see CNN just using what ever clips they feel like using do you ? Then why do you think that you have a right to ?

    Of course you can do it any way you want, many people do, but just because it is tolerated, doesn't make it legal.

    I still have not seen any documentation or law that say's "a 'review' site can use any images of copy written material that he see's fit without asking the copyright holder for permission".

    If this were true, who decides what is designated a review site, and what isn't ? Is there some kind of legal certification that say's "This site is a review site, and there fore is not bound by the laws of copyright ?"

    It sounds stupid, because it is. The rules are the same for everyone, you don't just make up a title for yourself, and all of a sudden you are exempt from the law.

    People have been saying this for so long, that now they believe it's true. The law didn't change just because bloggers started calling themselves "review" sites.

    I can guarantee you if you do it the way you want to and post what ever you feel like posting with no regard for what is legal, and then contact companies and ask to be on their press list for promotional material...they are going to look at your site and see that you have been rogue and posting up clips and photos that are not approved or released, or a part of any promotional campaign, and that you have posted them without permission and not only will you not be on their press list, the will tell you to take them down and ask you "Who the hell you think you are?"

    You can tell them that you are a review site so everything's OK.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  13. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #33
    You really should learn more about the law before posting in this section. With each new post you reveal just how little you know or understand about copyright law.
     
    browntwn, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  14. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #34
    Show me the law that say's a "review" site can use any copy written material they see fit without asking permission, or that by simply calling themselves a "review" site have special privileges to use anything they want without asking permission.

    At least I backed my point up with some proof, instead of just saying "I know what I'm talking about".

    Stop yapping and prove your point. If you know it to be true then you must have read it somewhere...show us.

    It is possible that I am wrong, and it would be news to me if somehow that laws have changed and website owners get to decide what they are going to show from other people's stuff.

    All I am asking is to show me where I am mistaken and prove your point. It would not only give you some satisfaction but it would be helpful to others if you could actually prove that what you are saying is true, instead of just looking to belittle me....it's getting kind of coring just going around in circles..some documentation would be nice.

    I know what "fair Use" implies, but when you start taking videos games and movies and posting things that were not intended to be made public you could quite possibly run into problems from the producers.

    To avoid any conflicts, producers make images and clips available for promotion, and review to the press. Commons sense says they go the extra mile in an effort ot keep certain aspects of the product out of public view so as not to give away important aspects.

    You don't have to use commons sense and you can hold on to the fair use doctrine and hope that it is enough of a defense to protect you in court, or you could work on the side of content producers so that you are a preferred critic and promoter and not just some snot nosed kid with a hosting account that is posting up the ending of the movie.

    From what I have seen there is still a lot of discussion on just what is protected and what goes into the realm of straight out theft,. Judges decide on a case by case basis everyday, and many suits are pending on where to draw the line on the obvious abuse of the "Fair Use" doctrine.

    This is out of the realm of my point, which was that you cannot post self made videos of game play online. I have already proven that to be true and I could really care less about the images thing ad don't really care if I am technically wrong. I know how I do it to avoid any conflicts . I use the images that are sent to me for promotion...I don't make my own and assume that it is OK with the producers.....I don't post up music, just because I am reviewing an album, unless it made clear that it is availalbe for posting or download. I actually work with producers, not against them....and I will continue to do it that way...and that's the advice I would give the OP.

    Post away.

    Edited:
    Found another forum with the same discussion, and since video games and movies have the same or similar copyright protection, I though I would share:

    Q: I am working on a new website and one thing I would like to do with this new site is post screenshots of movies, tv, games, etc. I won't be posting full videos or any type of videos. Just a screenshot or two.

    Would that be legal?

    Any assistance would be appreciated.


    A:

    Fair use or licensing.
    It is copyright infringement to use another's copyrighted work without authorization. To that end, you may be taking a risk by posting copyrighted content without permission in that you might receive a threatening cease and desist letter to take down the allegedly infringing content. It is always best to obtain written permission.

    That said, fair use is a defense to copyright infringement. If you are using the screenshots for a non-commercial use, if they are small thumbnails or otherwise small versions of these screenshots, then your use may fall within the ambit of fair use.

    These are the general guidelines as to how copyright principles work. I suggest that if you want a more concrete answer, you should contact a copyright attorney.


    Source

    . Fair use is not a right, it is a defense and it applies to non-commercial use of copy written material.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  15. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #35
    1. I have never said it was okay to post videos of you playing games online. You keep repeating that in replies to me when I have made in abundantly clear I am speaking of the use of screen shots only.

    2. The one legal issue I have tried to correct you now say you don't care if you are right or wrong. Not sure why you would expect me to waste time showing you when you say you don't care.

    3. Clearly, there is nothing wrong with the way you are doing business. I too would recommend that people try to work with the companies. It certainly is the easiest way to engage in that type of business.

    4. However, the notion that when a person wants to discuss a movie or video game that they are limited to screen shots provided by the producer is just silly. The whole idea of a free press is that they can report or discuss or review whatever aspect they wish - they are not limited to what the producer/owner of the work wants them to talk about. Being a blogger or a website does not lessen your rights. If they want to print spoilers for TV shows or movies, they can. If they want to say an ending of a game sucks and use a screen shot to show why, they can.

    Case law on fair use is fairly well established. Posting one or two screen shots from a video game is such a small portion of the overall work, and if it posted for review or to invite critical commentary it is most certainly allowed under the fair use exceptions of copyright law.
     
    browntwn, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  16. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #36
    Tell you what, let's just agree to disagree. I don't think "fair use" extends as far as you do, especially if you are seeking to make money from the website.
    In the grand scheme, it's up to the OP and any other webmaster how they want to do business and how far they are willing to protect their interpretation.

    As a general rule, if I don't own it, I don't assume it's OK to use. I am not a news site, and I am certainly not non-profit or educational.
    When I say I don't really care, I really don't. People are going to do what is convenient for them and will make justifications based on that
    I could prove all day long that taking screen shots from games and movies and posting them is not covered under fair use, but if that is not what you want to believe, you will argue against it till death.

    I gave advice based on how I do business with a similar site that does music reviews, and uses promotional images, press, and video..and my email box and post mail box is full everyday with press and music , because I do it the way that they want it done.
    Most of the time when people post here they don't want the truth,they want to know what they can get away with...they are going to do what they want anyway, an honestly, most probably won't get enough traffic for anyone to see it or care.

    As for your argument that you can post the ending to a movie online and not get into trouble...I'd like to see you try it and report back to us.

    Being a blogger doesn't lessen your rights, but it doesn't give you more than everyone else either. You still have to follow the rules, and respect the owner of the content.
    Bottom line is...it's not yours.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  17. libra0

    libra0 Peon

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    #37
    we never know..
     
    libra0, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  18. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #38
    I am not sure what you are trying to say there. Fair use is a right that is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution and is not limited to only non-commercial uses.

    If you would like to read more on what rights you may have to use copyrighted information you see the link below. I searched to try and find something for you that summarizes the many areas where the use of copyright materials is legal. And no, fair use is not limited to only non-commercial uses. Some of the biggest users of fair use materials are newspapers and television news programs, both of which are decidedly commercial and for profit.

    http://www.publaw.com/work.html

    I have no problem if you don't agree with me. That is certainly your right.

    You can't and didn't prove that blanket statement because it is not true.

    I gave advice based on my understanding of the law.

    Just so we are on the same page. I mean that people can reveal the ending, as in plot twists, etc. They cannot post the actual video of the ending of the movie.
     
    browntwn, Jun 19, 2009 IP
  19. MikeB67

    MikeB67 Member

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    #39
    Lol, this sort of made me laugh. So your saying the following sites are highly illegal.

    screwattack, AVGN, TGWTG and gametrailers. Sure it's owned by MTV but they show pretty much every game.

    Your basically safe as long as you have a disclaimer or in the credits of the video give the author of the game credits, say you review a movie by disney as long as in the credits of the video you put (this video was made and is owned by disney) They really won't care, they see it as a promotion of there product.

    There are thousands if not millions of game reviewers out there. Your sir providing the proper credits will be safe on this.
     
    MikeB67, Jun 20, 2009 IP
  20. hmansfield

    hmansfield Guest

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    #40
    Unless you work for any of these sites, you have no idea what their arrangement is or what kind of permissions they have to show the clips, or if they are showing clips that are freely distributed for review sites to use in the first place.

    You can't assume that everything that you see is just people taking any clip they feel like using.
    I use many things on my blog that are given specifically to me for promotion and I don't necessarily see them on other like blogs, as well as, other music blogs that have promotions just for their use because of promotion or production partnerships.

    Everything is not as it seems. Those sites as you said, are owned by MTV, but MTV is not the principle, Viacom is, which also includes Paramount, one of the largest producers of movies in the world and yes...movie based video games and distribution.

    I am sure that they will have legal access, partnerships and relationships to more clips than your average blogger or webmaster.

    You can't assume that because someone else does something that it is OK for you as well, and that is how people get into trouble..assuming.

    I am not disagreeing with everything, but what is OK for Paramount does not necessarily mean that it is OK for you...they actually create and own stuff and partner with like companies all over the world on various projects.....you don't.

    The bottom line is your really don't know how they do what they do, you are guessing on your interpretation because it makes the most sense to you right now because you don't have the complete picture, or have an insight into their legal department and partnerships. None of us are as big as Viacom, so there is no comparison that is going to apply. It's a completely different league.

    Look, people are going to do what they want and believe what is convenient for them. As long as I don't get caught in the mix of using unauthorized content, I could care less about other webmasters and bloggers...that's your business. But I am not going to tell someone anything that is different from the way that I do business, just because some people say do what ever you want...it's OK.

    We all do business different ways. The bottom line is if you get in trouble and you use the excuse that you "heard that it was OK on a forum because other people do it", you're the idiot and deserve anything you get.
    Consult an attorney.

    Just to add a few movies and video games that Paramount has produced to which I am sure they promote any way they see fit on their sister and company sites, and TV shows that others do not have the same access to, because they don't own the content.

    Transformers
    GI Joe
    Star Trek
    Spiderman
    Hulk
    Iron Man
    Shrek
    Superman
    Tomb Raider
    Sponge Bob Square Pants
    War of the Worlds
    Mission Impossible
    Indiana Jones
    and various production, merchandise, distribution and video game partnerships with Dream Works, Marvel, Spyglass Entertainment, Hasbro, Nickelodeon, DC Comics, Lucas Films, Tri Star Pictures, Disney, Columbia, Marvel Entertainment .which is going to pretty much cover crap load of merchandise and video games.

    So to say the you have the same rights and access as they do to their own stuff is ridiculous. That is why you see Paramount owned shows promoting Paramount products.

    As I pointed out before...this is why these companies have merged and formed partnerships over the last few years and purchased up licensing to so many brands...so that would have full range to create and promote them on every medium that they own...which is exactly what your example has proven.

    You see it on those shows with extended clips, and detailed information, images, soundtracks, and walk throughs because their parent company owns it, or helped produce it, or distributes it.

    Plain and simple. You don't have those same rights. They do it because they own it, and they can.

    The corporate world is much bigger than you and your review blog. You need to look at the big picture to truly understand how some people do what they do, and not assume falsely because you didn't take the time to find out ALL of the information.
    By showing me examples of shows that "get away with it" you should have gone deeper to find out why, and not just apply your own logic.
    They do it because they own it. All you have shown me is people promoting their own product.

    Now to say that you have the same rights as Paramount to show their copy written content (outside of what they generously provide for the press and media) and are protected as long as you put a disclaimer in the footer, is a chance I wouldn't take.

    The argument that other people do it, so you will be safe is just dumb. Other people speed in their cars too, that doesn't mean that you won't get a ticket if you do the same. People do a lot of things that are not right, it has never been an intelligent defense or ever provided anyone any protection.

    Truse me, there are many people that believe that the web is different and is open season to follow others. The web is no different, it's just harder to enforce because you don't need a license to broadcast, or publish information, that's why so many people get away with stuff.

    Providing the proper credit is not protection from copyright law...if you took promotions and articles from any one my sites, that I did not intend to be syndicated outside of what I allow by RSS, and you didn't ask for permission, I would be highly inflamed because that is content that I didn't want used, and you have no right to take it to promote your own agenda (ads, affiliate links, etc) that is why I secured the relationships to have it for my site. Providing credit in the footer is not good enough to protect you from me....but of course I have to know about it to report you to your hosting company for ripping me off.

    If you want it for your site, create your own partnerships or create your own content.
     
    hmansfield, Jun 20, 2009 IP