1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Link Vault Banned by Google - Coop going the same way?

Discussion in 'Co-op Advertising Network' started by Big Richard, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    17
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #61
    You still seem to not get it - again read this http://www.seomoz.org/articles/google-historical-data-patent.php

    As I have tried to point out a document is deemed relevant by how long a uses spends looking at it and how the user interacts with it. I assume that the high ranking blogs you visit are worth going to, and you spend a lot of time on them, along with other people - therefore google will assume that those documents are relevant to you and what you searched for. If the blog page (document) has numerous "irrelavant" links off the page - then this will have a negative effect on its document score - simply because if they are irrelevant to the user, then they will not be clicked on and deemed "irrelevant" to the user because that is what they are - if 100,000 people look at a document about snowboarding and never click the link down the bottom that says "cheap mortgages" then that link is going to be deemed irrelevant to the document and users reading the document - therefore a search engine will judge it as such and devalue the link.

    Further more if the user does click the link and then quickly shuts the linked to page down - ie spends no time on it, then that page is judged irrelevant to the user and the anchor text used to get to the document. IE if I click on a link with anchor cheap loans, and it takes me to a chocolate site, I'm not going to look at it, therefore it is sensible to assume that the page I clicked to was not relevant to what I was looking for ie cheap loans.

    So, lets go back to you blog example (although most blogs I go to provide relevant links to the document I am reading not hundreds of links to irrelevant sites ), so I would dispute you summary that good ranking blogs generally have hundreds of irrelevant links. However, hear again you are saying that they are irrelevant, but are you judging this on your opinion or the thousands of people that visit the blog? Blogs are written by people, who will generally link to their favourite hand picked sites (rather than random links from a link network that have no control over). Therefore if they are hand picked, and the people who read the blog have generally similar tastes to the person who writes the blog, then the links are probably going to be relevant to that person. Further more as the links are hand picked then they are likely to be good sites, therefore this is totally different to linking to spammy sites ( i.e which are typical of many sites that frequent both LV and the COOP ).

    If you don't think google can judge an irrelevant link then I think you are sadly nieve - for starter google runs profiling of a document to serve adsense contextural ads. Therefore it can compare the two pages - the page the link is on and the page the link goes to with similar profiling. This is for starters and as I pointed out above, if 100,000 uses view a document and never click that little link on it then it can judge it irrelevant, because 100,000 users have found it irrelevant. I know this is what google is aiming to do, and they are trying to bring more and more of the functionality detailed in the patent into their system. If laugh at this and think how can google ever track this, consider why google has started to give away google analytics (formerly Urchin before they bought it), which profiles every movement a user makes across a site - now why would they buy and then give away what previously used to cost a hell of a lot of money? Think about it for a bit!

    You should also consider how many people have the google toolbar installed on there PC's, sending fantastic bits of information back to google!
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  2. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

    Messages:
    25,924
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    380
    #62
    If you join link vault and coop and rely on that alone bringing you rankings/traffic .... you're lost. If you join either one, fine. But do whatever else you would do to seo if you hadn't joined. I'm not a member at coop or link vault. You can get good rankings without them. One thing I'm tired of is ppl joining either, praising them and then when something goes wrong blaming the program.

    Do whatever, but if something goes wrong: don't come back and complain ;)
     
    Blogmaster, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  3. Phynder

    Phynder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,603
    Likes Received:
    145
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    178
    #63
    Your kidding, right? How does Google know how long I interact with a website/webpage?
     
    Phynder, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  4. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    17
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #64
    Of Course I'm not kidding you. This is from google patent:

    36. The method of claim 1, wherein the one or more types of history data includes information relating to user behavior associated with documents; and wherein the generating a score includes: determining user behavior associated with the document, and scoring the document based, at least in part, on the user behavior associated with the document.

    37. The method of claim 36, wherein the user behavior relates to at least one of a number of times that the document is selected within a set of search results and an amount of time that one or more users spend accessing the document.


    As I explianed above - why do you think google is giving google analytics away for free? This could easily track bounce rates and time a user spends reading a document. So for that matter could the google tool bar.

    I believe google already has something along these lines already implimented - have you ever seen a page jump into googles rankings that seems to be a very poor page for that result, then watch its rankings rapidly deteriorate after a couple of weeks/months till after several months its so far down the rankings it cannot be found? This would explain it.
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  5. Phynder

    Phynder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,603
    Likes Received:
    145
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    178
    #65
    I don't know how many patents you have worked on, but realize this - you don't have to actually implement the patent - you are just getting a legal monopoly on the "invention". Having a patent does not mean that Google is "doing it."

    Again, I ask - on those sites that are not using AdSense or Google Analytics (the vast - vast majority of websites), how does Google know how much time a user spends on a webpage? They can't. Do not give Google any more credit than they are due.
     
    Phynder, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  6. mrconstantine

    mrconstantine Peon

    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #66
    I've just lost my ranking on google completely (google kawaiispace) and I know its because of coop, It's happened to other sites I frequent ... I think theres going to be a lot of complaints in here very soon.
     
    mrconstantine, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  7. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

    Messages:
    25,924
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    380
    #67
    How do you know that it's because of the coop and not because you've neglected all the other seo work simply relying on coop?
     
    Blogmaster, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  8. Shoemoney

    Shoemoney $

    Messages:
    4,474
    Likes Received:
    588
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    295
    #68
    I give up.

    lol... when the next newb makes a post next month Ill chime back in
     
    Shoemoney, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  9. mrconstantine

    mrconstantine Peon

    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #69
    I know its because of coop because mypimpspace.com (100k visitors a day) has also been knocked off google. And guess what, thats right.. co op! My comparison site which dosn't use co op is still ranking dandily. I mean my site dosn't even come up when searching the domain name... theres no reason for that, my google traffic was going along steadily.
     
    mrconstantine, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  10. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    17
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #70
    Of course a patent does not mean you have implimented it - then again whats the point of paying for one unless it is going to be of use to either you or a competitor......

    For a site that does not use adsense the profiling of the page is still there - Google doesn't have to have adsense to profile a page.

    Google can check how long you spend on a webpage fairly easily - for one the google toolbar can track where you visit ( and if they want how long you spend on a specific page/site ): From google tool bar privacy policy: While we do not generally collect information about the webpages our users visit, if users are running the Google Toolbar with advanced features enabled, Google may collect information about webpages that they are viewing. The advanced features of the Google Toolbar are PageRank, AutoLink, SpellCheck, and WordTranslator.

    So there for one they can easily collecting information on you habits etc. Now consider the number of users with the toolbar installed, it may be a small %, but it will still be a huge number and enough to draw up fairly accurate profiles.

    Now the second method - You do an google search - google then uses a redirect URL for the link you click on - so it knows where you are going (these redirect links are often in place on google - yahoo uses them all the time) . Therefore it knows what you searched and what you clicked on and the time you clicked. It is then a simple process of working out your next move - if you come straight back to the google results page and click another link it knows that the page you went to was not what you are looking for - and therefore it can assume that the page was not relevant to the search term you entered, and can then devalue it in the SERP's for that term. If however you stayed a long time on the site, before coming back to google it can assume that the page was relevant to your search and therefore increase its SERP's. Although there are flaws in the methodoligy you have to realise the number of searches that occur through google - again with such a huge data set, you can build up a pretty accurate profile.

    Not rockets science really, and entirely possible.

    The reason why this methodoligy is so good for search engine results is that it is spam proof and relies totally on a users view of the relevancy of a search result. - Simply put the longer time a user looks and interacts with a document, the better that document can be considered to be.

    The winners will be the sites which produce high quality content the user wants - the loosers will be the spam sites (and there will be very little they can do about it). Therefore I believe this is A) what google is striving to do, and B) you would be wise to concentrate you efforts on it (ie produce top quality content).
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  11. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    17
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #71
    Shoemoney your posts give absolutely no objective thought to the arguments posted - why don't you come up with some intelligent responses other than harping on about everyone being a newbie that disagree's with you. I belive I have posted some sound objective arguments, so respond to them, instead of just shouting "newb".
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
    GuyFromChicago likes this.
  12. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

    Messages:
    2,396
    Likes Received:
    150
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #72
    Yahoo has been doing this for years...monitoring user's 'time spent' of a given page to help determine a score of importance. It really isn't difficult to do and also makes sense to me. For example, if you run Google toolbar you may or may not be aware of the privacy issues that you have just waved by signing up. These days I really like to keep my cards close to my chest, for that reason I don't use G toolbar or any other free tool that invades my privacy...the things I do are NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!

    Richard, I am impressed with your knowledge on the Google patent, just don't get to wrapped up in it. Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees when your too deep in the forest. Not sayen that's the case here cuz yur points are well substantiated and have basis. Trying analyzed today's Google would by like pinning the tail on a donkey that ain't there ;)


    H
     
    Homer, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  13. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    17
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #73
    Exactly, it is very easy for them to do and makes total sense - its also pretty bullet proof to spam as SE's will be relying on millions of independant user to review webpages (via checking the time they spend on a site/webpage) without the user actually knowing about it.

    I'm not really getting wrapped up in the google patent, but I have paid close attention to it (as I believe every serious SEO should do).

    Being able to monitor interaction between webpages and users I would say is the holy grail of SE's, as its going to be extreamly difficult to spam, and could provide much better targetted results.

    With recent events I believe though we are starting to see the tip of the tide away from the ability of link manipulation to alter results. For example it used to be so simple to get top rankings on thousands of keywords, just by using COOP, LV and reciprocal link exchanges. There was a huge drop in this ability, that I saw last October/November during a large update, then this seems to have been taken one step further by google in recent events, with "possible" penalities being applied.

    Lets face it, at the end of the day this is a good thing, as why should a site get to the top of the results using a link network? - It plain shouldn't.

    I have changed my perpective recently and am now just focusing on what the Search Engines want, which is what the user wants, which is a brilliant site with brilliant content.
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  14. magoo

    magoo Peon

    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    5
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #74
    Hi everyone, I've been a member for a long time but don't post much, usually just read the board for ideas relating to SEO, which I have used the coop for with varying results. Just thought I'd pipe up with my opinion on this as it's an interesting subject. I completely agree with Big Richards take on this and I've recently started realising that what Google is trying to get us to do is not spoil our fun by making it hard for us to get good results, they're trying to encourage us to create good content rather than trying to artificially inflate our results with these sort of networks. Think about it seriously and that's in the interest of everyone using the internet when we end up with better quality sites showing up and less SPAM. I for one will be happy when there are less SPAM and Adsense sites showing up in the results, I think most people will. I think link building will always be a part of the process but over time will become less and less important, with useless links at the bottom of the page on non related sites eventually counting for nothing. A better strategy is to create content that people actually want to link to! if you rely on cheap and easy tricks to boost your site you will eventually pay the price. I'm not so sure that Google are currently using data about how long users spend on a site in their results, but I'm sure they will eventually. I don't think this will end the practice of SEO's looking for easy reults though, I can see this leading to thousands of kids in India being employed to browse websites over and over again! Whatever Google does there'll be thousands of people trying to outwit it. When really they'd be better off spending their time actually creating websites people wanted to read!
     
    magoo, Jun 22, 2006 IP
    Blogmaster likes this.
  15. mrconstantine

    mrconstantine Peon

    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #75
    read the thread about sites being heavily penalized... complaints are mounting as i said they would... theres no doubt its because of co op.
     
    mrconstantine, Jun 23, 2006 IP
  16. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

    Messages:
    25,924
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    380
    #76
    I've read several posts on it, and like I've said, I'm not in the coop. But some people swear that the coop is giving their rankings a big boost. The question would be why some sites are penalized while others are not.
     
    Blogmaster, Jun 23, 2006 IP
  17. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

    Messages:
    2,396
    Likes Received:
    150
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #77
    Likely short lived OR the links are being seen as relevant in some cases :confused:.
     
    Homer, Jun 23, 2006 IP
  18. alephito

    alephito Peon

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #78
    I am still having good ranks for the targeted sites. The problem is with the sites that host the co-op links (I run co-op in two sites and direct the links to others).

    This would be consistent with the idea that nobody cannot hurt a competitor's site.
     
    alephito, Jun 23, 2006 IP
  19. Blogmaster

    Blogmaster Blood Type Dating Affiliate Manager

    Messages:
    25,924
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    380
    #79
    I do actually believe that's what it is. The level of relevance varies from site to site. You really are playing roulette literally. But if your site has a lot of incoming links from a variety of sources, doesn't it make it safer to join a program like the coop?
     
    Blogmaster, Jun 23, 2006 IP
  20. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

    Messages:
    2,396
    Likes Received:
    150
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #80
    Possibly the next level, effective COOP is one where the user can select the links they want to appear pointing to them :confused:.

    My point is, few will argue the value of relevance and some are now claiming penalties for irrelevant, spammy pages. If there's any truth to that would you risk being penalized?

    I think Googs has become the wiser with the way most get artificial links!


    H
     
    Homer, Jun 23, 2006 IP