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Link Vault Banned by Google - Coop going the same way?

Discussion in 'Co-op Advertising Network' started by Big Richard, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. Phynder

    Phynder Well-Known Member

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    #41
    Indeed and this is why I have started to concentrate on Yahoo and MSN (sad, huh?) rankings. I don't consider Google, but if I get traffic from them - yippie. Too many businesses are built on the precarious relationship with Google.

    The funny thing is - I can't even get AdWords to take my money - they keep raising all my bids to $5.00 a click. Sorry, I ain't paying that!

    Hmmm... Seems like Google is starting to get too smart for their own good.
     
    Phynder, Jun 17, 2006 IP
    Homer likes this.
  2. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

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    #42
    Yes and I believe that's primarily what this is all about NOT cleaning house. Matt and G engineers may be very impressed with BigDaddy but I think they are the only ones that are.

    If I may, I'd like to share some of the new marketing tactics I am using...

    1) Local Marketing offline- printing of circulars and distribution to local business.

    2) Market your site to local Se's. More and more folks are starting to use them to find local companies. So spend a bit of time trying to work your optimizing skills to them. In conversation with your local clients ENCOURAGE their use of local Ses and NOT Google as the results will be much more specific to their local needs.

    3) I agree 100% with MSN and Yahoo. Although their search hour market share is not what Google's is they are much more fair in listing quality content.

    4) If your site is banned or highly penalized by Google, block Gbot from crawling your site. Heck, if I had it my way...we should ALL block Gbot.

    5) Join a few other (underground) forums that can give you new perspectives. Discussions are very productive/ private.

    6) As a last ditch effort OK use AW if you have to, but use them wisely understanding that roughly 1/3 of ALL clicks are fraud...still.

    **THEIR ARE MANY OTHER TACTICS YOU CAN EMPLOY, these are all I am willing to say publically**

    OK #4 is a little humorous ;) but if we all did the the G world would change. They have this 'up here' attitude that you are just a peddle of sand on the beach. By that I mean, if there are current bans or penalties on your well established WH sites then why wouldn't Google give you a little something to go on instead of the standard canned letter...over and over. True you are a pebble of sand, but the beach is made up of sand and that's what Google doesn't care to appreciate :rolleyes:.

    Like anything in life there are leaders and followers. Google has earned their way into the leadership position, with that have to realized they are being gamed the most, hence the reason for the most aggresive algo I've ever seen.

    I personally wouldn't feel this way if ALL my main, WH, 5-7 year old sites weren't all supplimental right now (last 4 months). Tired of submitting reinclusions only to receive the same canned letter every time.

    Do what you need to do to feed your family. It's your choice to be reactive or proactive. I chose the latter!

    Rotza Ruck :)


    H
     
    Homer, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  3. Shoemoney

    Shoemoney $

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    #43
    o well until next month another newb will make the coop sucks post ;)
     
    Shoemoney, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  4. SportsOutlaw

    SportsOutlaw Active Member

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    #44
    I did the same thing. Not because I was worried about google penalizing my site, but because my weight had dropped so low that it seemed pointless to keep the ads on my site.

    A few short weeks later, yahoo rankings fluctuated down for the keywords I was using, however other keywords climbed. Same thing happened with MSN.
    Google was a shocker - I immediatetly got an increase in google traffic and rankings appeared much better.

    indexed pages climbed on one site from 10,000 to 27,000. On the other site, I had dropped from 400 down to 4 pages. After removing the coop this site climbed to near 600. Both of these sites showed changes at the same time.

    I was going to put the coop ads back in once google got straightened out, but at this point I will continue to keep an eye on how I do without it. Good rankings in google are far more important than good rankings in the other search engines. coop hadn't helped me with google in several months.
     
    SportsOutlaw, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  5. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #45
    Since when is the coop meant to help you in Google :rolleyes:
     
    fryman, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  6. SportsOutlaw

    SportsOutlaw Active Member

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    #46
    You know exactly why most people use this program. Why act stupid about it?
     
    SportsOutlaw, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  7. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #47
    Why bitch and moan about it when it is not meant to be used for that?

    If you use your gun as a nutcracker are you going to complain when it fires and kills your cat?
     
    fryman, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  8. SportsOutlaw

    SportsOutlaw Active Member

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    #48
    Do you see me bitching and moaning about it? No, you don't. I am simply stating what my site has done with and without the product. Things like this can be discussed without it being bitching and moaning.

    Do you have anything constructive to provide to the conversation, or just your normal uneducated smartass remarks?
     
    SportsOutlaw, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  9. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #49
    Yeah, goolge sucks, Yeah, the coop sucks. Now you must be happy, go back to bed.
     
    fryman, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  10. RectangleMan

    RectangleMan Notable Member

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    #50
    Google does suck and I don't see anyone arguing about that.
     
    RectangleMan, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  11. livingearth

    livingearth Well-Known Member

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    #51
    My thoughts exactly:)

    It seems that results change constantly. There are dozens (at least 60 I know of) of datacenters that fluctuate periodically as changes seem to move through them until they appear to come to some agreement and then fluctuate again. Its like the old saying about fishing..."you ain't holding your mouth right" It is so easy to compare natural changes to just about anything and theorize and conjure all sorts of possibilities.

    If I were a search engine, I think that I would intentionally toss the order periodically, just as a means of removing any credibility of anyone trying to accuse me of playing favorites.
     
    livingearth, Jun 19, 2006 IP
  12. Indian

    Indian Peon

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    #52
    PPl at link vault are "SELLING" the vaultage...selling of weight is not allowed at DP...now if ppl are selling it...noone knows...we do have terms and conditions at DP...Link Vault dosent...When Google sees tht Link vault guys are selling the vaultage they might feel as if they (Google) are whores ;) ...Thts why they would ban LV (I really am not bothered to even check if they are banned or not) :D :D :D
     
    Indian, Jun 21, 2006 IP
  13. Indian

    Indian Peon

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    #53
    Try selling it to me with some legal documents on it and see me get rich within few days ;) :D ...

    Ciggratte smoking is injurious to health (its written on every cigg pack on this planet)...still we smoke ciggs...dont we??...hope u get the point now :)
     
    Indian, Jun 21, 2006 IP
  14. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

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    #54
    How are they selling vaultage? EBay. How much? What you'll pay. What happens after 3 months? No reply. What's is worth? _ (fill in blank).

    gurgle, gurgle
    *sinking sound*


    H
     
    Homer, Jun 21, 2006 IP
  15. Shoemoney

    Shoemoney $

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    #55
    here is a thing...

    Barry over at http://www.seroundtable.com/ has ran digitalpoint coop on his site since it started. Yet google AND Matt Cutts link to seroundtable as a authority on seo AND its included in Google and Yahoo! News

    sooooo...... if Coop is so bad.... why does barry have every page indexed, a pr7, and also glorified by Google, Yahoo, and Matt Cutts himself?

    We actually talked about this topic on last nights radio show

    Link vault vs digitalpoint coop here (its in the first 5 mins)
     
    Shoemoney, Jun 21, 2006 IP
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  16. volvo

    volvo Peon

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    #56
    Never noticed this, thanks nintendo. I thought my site was flushed by google til I looked here.
     
    volvo, Jun 21, 2006 IP
  17. Big Richard

    Big Richard Peon

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    #57
    That's irrelevant to my point/points. Because a site runs coop ads on a site does not make that site irrelevant ( you should also be thinking on a page (document) basis rather than a site basis - it should be well known to you that google works on a document score basis rather than a site basis, the site "score" relating to the sum of its document scores). Google basis its document score on numerous factors relating to the document (Here you should read googles patent on this :http://www.seomoz.org/articles/google-historical-data-patent.php
    ) .

    It would take me hours to explain my full theories on how these patents apply to document scores ( although I pretty much agree with all the seomoz points ), but there are several things that are clear - and to be honest this comes more from human behaviour than from goolges patent:

    If you have a 2 documents that are about search engine optimization - both documents being exactly the same, except 5 outgoing links. Say document A's links go to dp, seochat and other seo related documents, and document B, has 5 outgoing links via the coop - say a mortgage page, travel page etc, that are not relevant to the content of the page.

    Now which of those two pages is going to be more useful to a user looking for an article about search engine optimisation ?

    Obviously this is going to be document A.

    Therefore if document A is most relevant to the user, which one does googel want to display to the user - and that again is obviously document A, as google want to display the most relevant result to the user.

    Now to take this further, Google needs to score both the documents and how can it do this? - It has to look at several things:

    - The time people spend reading the document.
    - The number of "relevant" links pointing to the document ( and the document scores documents containing the links to the document )
    - What people do relating to the document and which links they follow from the document.
    - Numerous other factors detailed in the patent.

    One important consideration is that if people reading the document do not follow the links in the document, then it can be judged that the links are no help or interest to the reader, and therefore the document is less relevant to the user - so both the document and the links get devalued.

    However this devauling is only a factor in the scoring process and if a lot of highly relevant documents link to this document it still may have a high score, ( although the score will be less than that of the document with relevant links ) and also you have to consider the time people will spend and interact with that document. Therefore although a document may have its overall score reduced buy irrelevant outgoing links, the document may still have a high score based on other factors.

    So if you apply this on a site wide basis - say irrelevant links on every page of a site ( it does not matter where the links come from - LV or Coop would be the same - it is the relevancy to the document and the quality of the pages the links go to that counts ), then every page of the site will have its document scores devalued - this produces a knock on effect as scores are passed from page to page within a site, so if every page has a slight devaluation, then each page passes less of a score to the next.

    This however again will not mean a document of site will be knocked from the search results as there are numerous other factors at play. This expalins exactly why it is far harder to effect an authority site negatively, than a new/non authority site, as far more negative scoring is needed to have any significant effect on an overall score.

    In summary it does not matter how a link is obtained ( LV Coop or manually ) - it is the relavancy of the link to the document, the score of the document it links to, and how the user interacts with the link ( ie if the link is often selected then it can be deemed more releavent to the document - however if the user clicks the link goes to the page and immediately clicks off the page, then it can be deemed that the link is to a poor document and not related to the anchor text of the link ).

    There are numerous other points in googles patent which should concern you with regard to LV and COOP - specifically "link churn" - read the details and make of it what you will.

    In Summary here is another analogy to help you uderstand what I am trying to say: Suppose you website is a magazine, and each page of the magazine relates to a page on your website. The magazine is about snowboarding. Now each page in you magazine has adverts on it. You can place adverts all related to snowbaording (eg flights, snowbaording deals, resort info, snow reports etc etc) or you can place adverts related to not themed ( eg mortgages, gambling, car loans etc etc ). Which of those two examples will sell more ? - Obviously the one with relevant adverts. Now take it one step further - the mortgage, gambling and car loan adverts relate to scam companies ( the is an analogy of spammy poor website links ). You will start loosing you readers faster than ever. Quite simply do what is useful to your users and non relevant spammy links/adverts are going to end up hurting you in the long run - there maybe a short period where it works but google and other SE's will soon figure it out.

    Sorry no I don't get your point - you speak absolute gibberish and I have had more sense out of my goldfish.
     
    Big Richard, Jun 22, 2006 IP
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  18. Foggy

    Foggy Link and Site Buyer

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    #58
    I love answering rhetorical questions :)

    Why do Google, Yahoo and Matt Cutts link to him? Because so far a link is not an expression of approval of everything on the destination site.

    Why does he have a PR7? Because PR is determined by links. You see, generally speaking, the more links you have, the higher the PR of those pages linking to you, the lower the number of outgoing links on those pages, and subject to things like nofollow, the higher your PR. Pretty basic, really.

    Why is it indexed? Because if Google stopped indexing anything it didn't approve of every single SEO site in the world would probably miss out of being in the index. And many others. Like that bl**dy Microsoft.com :)
     
    Foggy, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  19. Indian

    Indian Peon

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    #59
    OMG!!! You are absolutely right. Whatever u said is perfect :). Lets give a round of applause to BIG Richard and close this thread please :D
     
    Indian, Jun 22, 2006 IP
  20. Phynder

    Phynder Well-Known Member

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    #60
    Big Richard - your complete argument can be nullified with one word -> BLOGS. Most high ranking blogs that I visit have a list of 100 irrelevant links to other websites - sometimes seemingly totally random (depending on the blog owners tastes).

    Not to mention - how does Google decide what is "relevant link"?
     
    Phynder, Jun 22, 2006 IP