WRITERS: If you don't want the harsh truth, don't read this.

I do not understand why some good DPians are so skeptical about Indians? Slecting a writer is purely a prerogative of the assigner.It is again a big myth that english is reserved with people from US or UK and everybody else who is using english cannot write good.
The difference between native and non-native will always be there but the rate with which internet users ae increasing in other parts of the globe it will surpass all these numbers very soon.So let us repect each other.A writer is a writer afterall.We all are born at some place and it was not by our choice.

 

True ashvaj, but the problem is that a very large portion of the Indian writers found in places like this (and other non-native English speakers who tout themselves as amazing writers) actually have very poor English language skills.

The issue I have is when they take advantage of clients who are non-native speakers by saying they're offering articles in perfect English, knowing the clients wouldn't be able to tell the difference one way or the other. I find that disgusting. What's sad though is that a lot of them truly do believe their English skills are outstanding, so they make no effort to improve. By all means, not all writers from India or any other country fall into this category (and we have plenty of lousy writers here in the US too).

When people claim things that aren't true, they're disrespecting their potential buyers and not so much the native English speaking writers, but those from their own country who have made the effort to truly perfect their English writing. I know more than a few who have done that to a point where you'd never know they were Indian based on their writing - for those types of writers I have an overwhelming amount of respect, because it's something I wouldn't dream of being able to do in a second language.

That said, it's not as though most of us native English speaking writers are out trying to compete in other language markets - I would consider it very disrespectful if someone like myself were to start pitching services to French or German publications or companies claiming I could produce "perfect" business writing in their native tongue (and there are several I wouldn't mind doing work for).

 

That's right Jenn.

A writer of your calibre would certainly understand the point.But the problem is with people who start cursing others just because they feel that the competition is getting more fierce.India has been under british rule for more than 200 years and it is very obious that english is no new to indians.It is true that gramatically correct english is a problem with many of indians in the same way it is with many people across the world.

As a matter of fact, there are good english writers in india as well.Unfortunately most of them are not computer savy and that is why you do not see them online. Not more than 15% of indians use computers and the population using internet is far too less.There are hardly 3-5% indians who have an access to the internet .This rate is now growing exponentially as the rate of penetration of mobile and internet services in this country is expanding these days.We will see an explosion in coming years.

In a population of over 1.05 billion there are indians who are trying to befool others.I am not surprized on this.Good and bad people are everywhere and India is no exception.We respect Americans and many other countrymen alike because we are learning new things from them.But we expect the same from them in return.

I do not think that we are Americans or Romanians at DP.We all are writers or webmasters or better professionals standing on one platform.
When on work, I would prefer to be recognized by my name and my work rather than an Indian.

I hope you agree wth this "Jenn".

 

Unfortunately and sadly, that's true everywhere. There are a lot of lousy American writers, as there are lousy writers in every country and in every language. And there are excellent writers in all nationalities and languages too.

The people who issue the blanket statements about poor Indian (or other) writers driving prices low, taking all the work, etc. are often just the ones who find it's easier to complain than work hard at separating their own work from the masses. Fortunately (on DP at least over the last year or so) we're seeing better writers everywhere start to surface online, building better visibility. Hopefully that trend will continue, and clients will actually be exposed to quality writing often enough to be able to tell the difference between writers on an individual basis.

 

I think you're right, Jason, that there is a influx of people in Category 2. There also seems to be quite a few feeding into Category 1. In addition to the threats you're making, I wonder about the following:

A. Is Category 1 really satisfied? How long are those writers content to churn out articles for that much? It's possible they are making as much as $10-20 an hour, which is a great rate for lite topics and a bit of part-time work. It beats McDonalds. Of course it might not be as dependable as McDonalds, but that is the nature of the market.

This is why so many students and others who are without jobs or looking to stay home with kids as well as those still working at other jobs are content with these rates. It's a very good argument. But if circumstances change will they still be okay with $10 an hour for the easy stuff and only $2-3 an hour for a topic or project that needs more research or is tedious?

B. Will the writers in Category A and B be able to improve their abilities over time? At the lower rates, writing more and slapping things together quickly leaves little time to learn the latest industry news if a writer is hoping to specialize or dig into an industry or even read back through to proof or revise an article. Learning takes time - are these writers able to find time to expand their abilities and knowledge base?

C. What is the burn-out rate? To make enough to justify the effort, especially if you are actually paying taxes and freelancing legally, you have to crank out almost twice as much work for your $5-10 an hour as you would working at a clothing store or answering phones somewhere. That's a lot of work a day. If someone isn't content with very part-time writing are they burning out?

D. Is is possible to grow your business writing for that amount? Again, marketing takes time. Naturally if you (the webmaster) found a great writer who works for so little, you might be willing to tell a friend about her (or him), but if she's already doing tons or work for you, are you going to want to share your treasure? This means she probably needs to be marketing herself to keep a steady workload, unless she's earning all she needs from long-term clients, which is still a dangerous proposition without contracts or continued marketing efforts.

E. Price and quality aren't everything. They are mostly everything, but my personal experience has shown me that clients come back time and time again because they get frustrated by unprofessional behavior and missed deadlines by writers they tried to use that cost less. $5-10 writers are popular, and rightly so, but they are often so popular they can't keep up with their commitments and aren't business savvy enough to handle that end of the business (contracts, missed payments, etc...)

Just a few more thinking points to add to yours.

Rebecca

 

Very well put ashvaj, its so unfortunate that people cant be more tolerant and respect others. In fact people who crib about Indians should read 'The World is Flat' by Friedman to know what globalization is all about and how it benefits everybody in the long run. He makes a very interesting point about how horizontal collabration is happening around the world and why one has to keep updating his work skills to be effectively employable in a flatter world.

 

I also think that it depends on the webmasters who decide what they want to have. Its not on the writers who are not at all aware of others. And they also don't want to be. Because they know they are here today, but tomorrow they will be in another place. Those who are stick to this forum will surely have some bad time, but will have to fight it as far as possible.
But its also true that whenever you are bidding your price somewhere, and suddenly you see someone bidded there with even 0.1 cent per word, you have to simply search for another thread. Now it depends on the webmaster, whom he is going to choose, thinking about what.

 

Well, I find myself a step above category 3 but not yet close to category 4. Once I ranted about being payed $0.02 per word here in copywriting section itself. That thread received around 105 replies (although it did go off-topic many times) but it was helpful in getting me connected with clients who pay well.

These days I charge $0.05+ and yeah I do add that SEO tinge to those articles. I do perform my research before compiling those article and hence I consider myself above #3.

I guess such writers should continue with their day jobs (I am sure they do) and work as part-time writer initially. Write less and utilize what you write. Create a portfolio outside DP (as jhmattern pointed) and alongside learn the nitty–gritty of writing.

I finished my engineering recently and will join an IT MNC soon as s/w engg. Simultaneously I am working as freelance writer and striving very hard to improve my client base. I am 23 right now and hopefully by the age of 30 I will be a full time freelancer.

 

I understand what you're saying about higher quality writers for lower prices, but I don't know where the market may be heading. Also you have to remember there are always more and more webmasters joining the online workforce.

Derek

 

For writers in groups 2 & 3, I say never be comfortable with where you are. There are higher paying jobs and you can get them. You will get a ton of suggestions from this person and that, but "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

If you pay attention to a lot of writers in #4, you'll see they're saying the same things about getting better paying jobs - market yourself and network with other writers. Put yourself out there and let people - prospective clients and other writers - know you exist.

"Putting yourself out there" doesn't always mean making a thread in the BST forum then linking to it in your signature. Though that's certainly one step you can take, it's not the only one. Marketing isn't always flagging someone down and saying "Hey, look at me. I'm a writer. I can write." Participate in threads in the entire forum, not just the Copywriting forum. Have something intelligent and helpful to say and people will notice you.

Wanna know how else you'll benefit from getting outside of this forum? You'll find out what the webmaster market is looking for when it comes to writers. You'll learn what their business needs are and how to market to them.

 

There has been a gradual increase in writers providing better quality and that is clearly evident here at DP and elsewhere.

Agreed! English is a tough language to master (not learn) and it may be possible to tell a non-native English speaker from a native English speaker. What I don’t agree is with the thinking that a writer from the US or UK is better than any non-English speaking writer. Here I'm talking about people who "can" write and not those that call themselves writers.

In many non-English speaking countries like India, English is hardly treated as a foreign language and is taught as if it were their mother tongue. Not everyone from the US or UK who call themselves a writer is educated. There are some things ONLY education can teach us.

Since we are talking about web content here and most writers here at DP cater to webmasters, I believe that well-researched and informative content written in “good” English breaks down the gulf that exists between a non-English speaking writer and a native English speaking writer.

Since you asked us to “sound off,” I felt the need to discuss this.

I partially agree with you on this. This decline seems possible with those writing for the smaller webmasters who are always looking to cut costs.

With the other webmasters, once a long-term relationship is established, they usually don’t shop around for cheaper writers, even if it means "investing" more in their business. This applies to clients who look for quality and are willing to pay for it. This is the reason, it becomes important to provide quality and build relationships along the way.

 

This is something I'm not so sure I agree with (and should have brought it up sooner when Jason mentioned it).

I don't believe there are more writers providing better quality in the grand scheme of things. And I really don't even think that the poor quality / super low price crowd is going to lose much sleep.

The difference is where the writers can be found - that's all. And those benefiting are mostly the webmasters who were too lazy to effectively look for these better writers until they came knocking at their door in webmaster communities, bidding sites, etc. They were always there - in WAHM communities, small writing communities, and niche experts in niche communities who had no idea what they could charge and therefore charge much too little (and I know this for a fact, because I saw it all the time in my work with three content networks - oftentimes brilliant folks in their industry would take on just about ANY paid writing work in their niche as long as they got paid something up front - watching that is one of the biggest reasons I vowed never to be like that in my content writing).

So is it easier for your average Joe webmaster to find them now? Sure. But there are also countless new websites started every day with little to no budget (I doubt you could even begin to convince me that supply is increasing faster than demand here), and an increasing amount of information on how not to be one of those writers producing reasonable or outstanding work for very little (and from what I've been seeing, people really are listening and simply not taking it - at least not for long).

So no, I don't think prices in general are coming down. I think one specific type of buyer temporarily has easier access to better writers at lower rates. I wouldnt' get too comfortable.

 

I wouldn't hire a writer anyways unless I was getting 2000+ Uniques a day. I would be paying .10 cents a word if I had that much traffic because I know good writing would only get me for visits.

 

And you base this on what (same question for everyone else)?

Mine was direct experience from years of hiring writers from DP and elsewhere. And of course years of working with writers.

Not saying I'm right. The fun part about predictions is we can all go back and forth and no one will know until the day comes or doesn't.

But, I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on hiring writers over the years, because perhaps my experience is unique.

Oosha,

Thanks for sounding off.

 

I also have experience in hiring writers Jason. I've hired them. I've trained them. And I'm almost ashamed to admit some of that has been at pathetically low pay (such as hiring for the Suite101 network through 2006). Not as long as you perhaps, but I've certainly kept a finger on the pulse of things over the last 2-3, which encompasses the sudden growth you seem to be talking about. And from what I've witnessed, it just isn't true. There wasn't a lack of decent writers who would under-sell themselves in the past - they just weren't hanging around DP and webmaster communities. Even on DP there were writers in that category - that's why I started going out of my way to help them learn how to earn more. So yes, I've been very experienced with this particular group of writer. In the last year specifically, there has certainly been an increase of these writers in webmaster and related communities, but they were always out there, even if not on these sites.

 

Hmm. Maybe my experience is unique then.

At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me.

The more decent quality writers offering low rates there are, the less I have to work and the more money I make.

But, if rates were to magically skyrocket, I could just sell my stockpile of unused content and make even more money.

Guess I'm a win-win kind of guy.

 

I agree in some ways but the special creative mind is far more important than a good grammatical copywriter. The market may be changing but there's still infinite opportunities for people with a special style of writing/blogging.


This is the belief I tell myself anyways, and it helps me get out of bed in the morning.

 

This is what I was thinking as I read the posts here... may not be important to many, but may change some for better!

It indeed is a "Win-Win" situation for the right mind-set. This is the situation where one must exert strength of mind and move on. Even I had complained about the negative trend and undercutting of fees not so long ago. But I quickly stopped myself then. DP has now become a true Cosmopolitan forum, especially in its B/S/T wing. I had seen the extremes in NYC, Chicago, London, and even in Riyadh co-existing, which was no different than in Mumbai or Delhi... Classes and masses co-exist... they must. Yes, we must, becuase it's what life really is all about! If they do so in those top cities, then why not on DP? This correlation quickly awakened me to the reality:

Who was I to judge? What would I gain by hating or degrading those who also had the right to earn whatever they could. If I was bringing myself down from 4 cents a word to 1 or 2 cents a word, then those writers too shouldn't be blamed. As a writer, I humbly felt I needed to become more sensitive to the bigger issues and take a stand right there, at the exact point in time where I was on a rather dangerous cross-road ...

This was actually an opportunity, I thought! Either I had to drown myself in negativity of all sorts, or find better solutions. The latter seemed much better than the former! Why! I now had the opportunity to move forward and become a better writer... may be, get me motivated to master the art of Copy Writing. That seemed less tougher than ruining whatever peace I had! I always wanted to write more challenging and better articles, and here was the perfect situation. I had a steep mountain to climb, but it was better than the abyss behind!

To make this prolonged story end prematurely here, I am completely satisfied with the situation. I feel so, because the situation that seemed so grim earlier has, in fact, helped me to turn and dive inside me, and come up stronger and more determined. Now the situation is more controlled and cannot hurt. By just changing my thought pattern, I found peace and also the power to overcome such situation.

I now know that it cannot overcome me ever, because it has been an education that helped me take right decisions and kept me on the right track. This is what I feel, and maybe, every one should also use the hard situation, whatsoever, to become stronger and wiser...

"If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small" --Proverbs 24:10
It also means,
"Adversity causes some men to break; others to break records."

These Supreme Words are embedded deep on my soul. God Bless it!

 

The internet is a real free-market with writers and other freelancers.

If you write but you aren't really in the flow of being a "good" writer
in English - well you'll have a hard time getting American-freelancer
rates...

I write copy, not content, so there are some factors that prevent
the low-end writers from moving up... mainly that they probably
will have a hard time getting the education, the books, about
how to write copy. There is good stuff online for free of course -
but some of the really great stuff is in print only and you would
have a hard time getting it in a lot of countries.

How many IM writers in india are going to spend $95.oo
on Eugene Schwartz "Breakthrough Advertising"? It's just a
question. If $95 is a couple hours writing work it's not big deal -
but if it represents a week's work it is a significant investment...
and a matter of priorities.

No writer anywhere should allow him or herself to be held back -
but bad grammar is a sign of bad writing. Web-site owners
expect to get clunky prose from low-budget writers... it
just goes with the territory.

I would encourage any writer in India or where-ever who is writing
for very cheap to get a book like Strunk&White's "The Elements
of Style" - and really DIG IN to it... just like singing scales is
money in the bank for a singer, good grammar is for a writer.

Many writers in India or wherever could get 10x what they are
getting now if they improved to the level where the writing doesn't
scream "English is not my first language" - so instead of getting
$2 per hour you could get $20-$50 per hour working for more
demanding clients.

This isn't just fantasy - there is a real market for competent,
clear communicative prose. It's up to YOU to get your chops
around that skill and get the work of writing it. Networking
is a far better way, BTW, then messing around with bidding on
freelance sites, in my opinion.

 

Don't forget. There's a huge difference between content writing and copywriting. The two type of writing skills should not be mixed when you talk generically about "writers".