oops...lolz...its a perfect pic in a way that it explains wht really is happening in some of the developing countries (example, india...ma own country...)...although the pic is abt capitalist economy, u might come to see something similar in few non-capitalist countries... and most of all, "We Fool You" is what i was emphasizing more on..sry didn't clearly myslf
another example of hate pointed in the wrong direction. no breath deep enough that would sufficiently prepare me to explain common sense to some of you...
u sure can try me pal, if thats u in the avatar thn u sure have a point...i'd really like to hear wht u wanna say...
capitalism doesn't "fool" anybody. whoever made the picture should replace capitalism with Government. what does capitalism have to do with religion? maybe because capitalism is associated with freedom and freedom allows religion ---> therefore you don't want freedom of religion? I don't see what the point of the picture it is, it is stupid and I hope whoever drew it falls down the stairs.
lolz..its not fast learner thingy..wht i said was correct but for what i said was wrng..lolz...i mean its not the capitalist (which i meant earlier) but the government (which u explained)
Actually religion helped me to think for myself and i went through an inner quest for many years before i discovered my faith in god. The question that no atheist could truely touch without bias is can order arise from chaos and as rational beings we cant truely believe this as it makes no sense at all. If your an atheist you must search this question out and this is when it opens the even faint rational possibility thata god or super being can exist. Most atheists wont face this question because it flies in the face of everything they believe in and it opens up that door of faint possibility that god could possibly exist. I have yet to find one atheist that can answer this question but i had the best conversation with an atheist through pms and it was very civil and enlightening on both sides. There is a purpose for everything in this universe
I was referring to what I thought was the initial poster's suggestion that religion is useful for those who believe in an after life. There is much more to the 5 major religions than afterlife, although I believe they all share that concept. In my opinion, religion is not bad at all and can be useful if only some of those who practice it would learn the "spirit of the work not the letter of it". There are truths scattered among a sea of perversions that got there through the ages with Christianity for instance. Myself, I'm not an athiest or Christian. There's no category for what I believe - reincarnation, time is an illusion, we are our own judge, here to learn lessons, some form of karma exists, etc. I believe this universe has a set of laws that have always existed - and it's best at this point to simply learn our lesson and figure out the details of the laws in some other life.
"Can you imagine a world without countries or religions?" -- John Lennon, a millionaire who said 'Imagine no possessions' and "the Beatles were bigger than Jesus"
i don't believe in god...but 1 thing i can tell u is that if God really exists, then he created all of us to be ourselves and be together...he never would have wanted ppl to worship him and be divided by his name...what happened in Mumbai (26/11/08) is nothing but result of all this... "can u please tell me how order arises from chaos?" Everything has a saturation point...religion can never bring order frm chaos...imagine if am a millionaire and call u up in ma home to make u a 50% partner in ma business and at the same time a poor guy frm street calls u and asks you to give this opportunity to him on the name of god...will ne of u give it away??
It's like you just made that up without even reading my post. :-D Read my post again. If you are still of the opinion that I made no points within my post I will concede.... Because frankly there is no need to get into a battle of wits with you. You are clearly unarmed. You must be confused sir. Let me educate..... Blind group-think Obama supporters are the opposite of what I am. Blind Obama supporters don't even know why they support Obama. I on the other hand argue my points about the issues and why Obama's vision falls in with mine quite effectively actually. I even made a nice little "why I support Obama" post in the thread where you asked for it. I laid out some of my reasons logically and definitively and not one of them had anything to do with man-love :-D It was all about the issues. In fact I even mentioned a BIG issue where I ferociously disagree with him.... gun control. Not getting my panties in a bunch but I just won't allow you or anyone to falsely group me in with nutjobs when I KNOW you know better. It seems I just have to make long posts and explain things down to kindergarten level sometimes for people to understand where I'm coming from. Can't seem to leave anything up to common sense . But I'm content with that. Can't agree with you there for multiple reasons. 1) "except in dictatorships" assumes you mean anyone under a dictatorship is not a human being. We're talking about the human race here. Try not thinking with nationalist blinders on and try thinking on a bigger scale. The next nobel prize winner could be living under a religious dictatorship right now. But because that person will never be able to reach their true potential because of those constraint WE as a race lose. 2) The religious right is the single largest, most well financed, most influential, and organized force behind the opposition to many scientific fields of discovery. Stem cell research, cloning, you name it. For lack of a better way to put it, they always want to ask the question "is this God's will" before moving forward with anything. It is that "checking in with dad" mentality that is what I'm talking about. There is no proof that dad is watching us or even cares. So guess who steps in do be dad? Any opportunistic slimeball with a bible who can convince people that he knows what God wants. 3) I said it in my first post and I'll say it again..... Anyone who is in power because of religion fears progression. And those types of people will use their power to stop or at least slow down progression wherever they can. Those types of people also happen to be EVERYWHERE. Tyrannical regimes come to power in the first place riding on the wave of support they get from religious ideology and it's followers. Once in power they hold on to it with fear derived from a combination of both violence/sadistic acts and religious fear mongering (i.e. We are the chosen ones. It is God's will that you follow us or suffer in the afterlife). Thank you. That's why I am agnostic. I believe neither side of the debate has all the answers. I argue with atheists just as ferociously on atheistforums. The arrogance it takes to assume you KNOW for fact that there is no God in any form is astounding. I wrote the following in my founding "definition of an agnostic" post on my now sold agnosticforums.com: "An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved" And that belief is the source of both my disdain for religious people who think they have all the answers and atheists who think they have all the answers. you just don't see me arguing with atheists on here because the atheists here never try to say they have proof God doesn't exist. Because they have none.... You're right and wrong. Sure there are plenty blind Obama supporters. I'll never argue that point and only be happy that they blindly supported the right candidate this time instead of what happened the 2 elections before ;-) But the public offered far more than 1 or even 2 choices..... I don't know about you but there were IIRC at least 4 party choices for President on my ballot. So I'm not understanding where you get that Obama was the only solution. I voted for who I thought represented my views and had the best vision the countries direction. Ironically one of the choices was a candidate who wanted mostly more of the same. But no one stopped you from voting for any party. Apparently not. LOL You tell that to all the non-religious scientists, physicists, astronomists, engineers, anatomists, etc. Now in an effort to further mock your ridiculous statement, name a few fields of higher study where it makes sense to be religious, then tell me how non-religious people are generally less educated That's not what pingpong was getting at. He is making the point that atheists since they don't believe in God must believe that everything we see before us today is derived from chaos.... Which is a very good point. The problem is he likes to accuse atheists of hatred while his own blind hatred of atheists won't allow him to see that I've stated at least 3 times that I'm not an atheist and agree with his point He's so enraged he just keeps quoting my posts and asking me if I believe order can arise from chaos. As an agnostic I have to consider that either side could be right. But neither side can prove it. It's easier for me to see how you could, as an atheist, believe God doesn't exist. But what is hard for me to see is that, as an atheist, you can believe that there is no intelligence behind the wonder of life. How it always seems to find a way while adapting and evolving with it's surroundings. BUT...... that's not to say that I cannot see order from chaos being "possible". After all, life has had HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of years to practice and get things right. It's not like it just happened over night.... You give me a 100 question multiple choice test on nuclear physics and a hundred million years and I guarantee you I'll eventually score 100% on it out of sheer guessing and learning from my mistakes. Now looking at it from an odds standpoint, it's more likely that a being that is advanced beyond our comprehension could have planted the seed of life here on earth with the genetic blueprint for all living things millions of years ago. An intelligent blueprint able to think, react, and evolve. But to say it is not possible that all life could have evolved from chaos is close minded thinking to say the least.
Abhi, right now im doing work for free and delaying my social and financial life so that i can focus on taking care of my parents and friends in the future and im 41. Its all about whats important to you within yourself and yes i did turn down a huge opportunity once because it clashed with my ethics and morals. I wont lie to you, money is very very important right now in my life but its no where near as important as the essence of who i am from within . Also my question about how order arising from chaos is the most basic findamental question that no atheist will dare to look at or try to come to grip with (as i said many times before) because it will make them look within themselves and they must then acknowledge that a god(super being) of some form had to have existed because all of these natural laws in our universe could not have arisen by random chance. Im appealing to the scientific part of you. This takes faith out of the equation and forces them to look at the possible existence of god in a practical sense.
The rules, the morality, aren't enough, the man will be forever an arogant animal. The church, the government fool the people, but all this things have nothing to do with the true religion or spirituality you must feel it inside. Why someone must fool the people ? because ... we are many but stupid so someone must rule us... somehow. In XXI century ? in XXI century the new religion is the mass-media, kids learn all values from TV or internet, the adults are manipulated by them. Britney or Madonna are the new spiritual values, thousands are ready to die for a ticket, a ticket in heaven. After all the religion is the smallest problem in the world because the leaders will always find ways to fool the crowd. ( i don't count the extremists because they abuse ).
I do agree with you to some degree , but it is very rare to find people who truely follow the message that their faith tells them to. As ive stated before even though im catholic i have a hard time being on most catholic forums because i feel that alot of them have turned neo-conservative even though the church itself didnt support the war. As far as the elite ruling over the masses, its because they control the media, and have enough control over trillions of dollars of resources that they can change events and silence the voices of any media threats. What have i been saying for many years here. Most human beings, when given absolute power are corrupted absolutely. Hopefully one day these elite will wake up and realize that we are all on this earth together and we need to love and empathize with each other alot better then we have been doing so far. I would imagine that god is probably pulling his hair out at the many ways the rich and powerful have twisted his words to serve their purpose.
To GeorgeB's reply to my comment that those who are more educated generally believe in a god less, I point you to this (from wikipedia). Overall, it supports my point. and I justify my disbelief in the christian god or a god (Although a deist god, in other words they started the universe and then left it alone) because there is no evidence, thus Occam's razor and the scientific method say go with the simplest answer- nonexistance.