Iran Or Isreal? Who Will Be The Victory?

some are so eager to speak about themselves and their families and compare them to the current events on the international politics, sorry to say that this is a bit childish,

there is also a need to make Iran looks as a threat, and as if its been 100% proved:

1- they are developing a nuclear weapon
2- they are going to use it against Israel
3- possible they are going to use it against others

as if there is no at least 150 nuclear head ( some estimate 500+) in Israel, and all the kinds of biological weapons you could imagine, its a shame that after acquiring all these mass destruction weapons, Israel still feel so scared that they keep issuing threats and encourage USA to launch wars again on their behalf,

this paranoia did not come from emptiness as the best who knows Israel criminal history since before the day it was established in 1948 till now, are Israelis themselves and specially their politicians of whom some been proud to admit they been practicing terrorism, and even of whom some who been wanted internationally for practicing terrorism,

they are also the best who knows about the expansionism policy they been following since the establishment of the fake country of Israel, on the account of the historical land and people of Palestine, another power in the region, even without weapons of mass destruction, would make a threat for such policies, and for them, it should be stopped, of course, they will not declare the real reasons behind their war mongering actions, as these reasons never been declared to public in Iraq war, but there will be different reasons always, from WMD to terrorism, to human rights violations, which ironically they themselves are guilty of all these and more in occupying else land by force.

they know very well that they do not belong to this part of the world, so they are not only acquiring the most destructive weapons that been produced by the most sick, cruel, soul-less people in the world, but they also would be paranoid when a country in the region build a strong army,

its up to the reader, listener, or media watcher to adopt any kind of belief, and act accordingly, and its up to the people of the region to decide whether they want to accept such foreign entity on their land, or not.

 

And yet you wonder why Israel seeks to protect itself, when it is thinking like yours that is the reason. You don't think they have a right to live peacefully and countries you support feel the same.

You think that you and the countries you support can say Israel should not exist and that they should just sit by, unarmed, and wait for their own destruction. Not a chance. It is thinking of people like you that is the cause and reason that Israel needs to protect itself. If you and the countries you support had the capability to attack and destroy Israel - you would do it. They have every right to protect themselves from that very real threat and make sure it never comes to fruition.

 

when you say Israel what do you mean? the illegal occupation force that expelled people from their own historical homes and lands, claimed falsely they are theirs and the other simply does not exist? or you mean Jews?

Jews have the right to exist and live peacefully, but whether its Jews or else, anybody who take the right of existence from others, will be risking his own peace, and of course will be paranoid about his existence thinking the other when get the chance, will treat him the same as they did.

Israel as an illegal country, of course, does not have any right to exist.

 

Well, if it was a legitimate regime recognized by the world as an accepted partner, then we'd have a political/philosophical dilemma.

The face of Iran is its political establishment. The "establishment" currently funds terrorists groups such as the Hizbollah.

I'd like to remind every American out there that the Hizbolla is responsible for the death of 241 American serviceman lives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

Furthermore, when the current Regime of Iran took power, I'd like to remind Americans how Iran kidnapped and held hostage 52 American diplomats for 444 days which led to the "Iran Contra". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Just last year, the Iranians kidnapped British Naval service personnel and 5 British people are currently held by Iran's government who we're kidnapped from Iraq
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3822830.ece

Did I mention the terror in South America? Iran bombed the American embassy there killing more innocent people. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298300,00.html and was also responsible for an attack in Buenes Ares.

So don't give me any shit about bombing innocent people. We're talking about terrorists running a government called Iran.

I don't give a damn if you call it "peaceful" nuclear energy or "bomb grade" nuclear arsenal - Iran is not responsible, nor can be trusted with such technology.

It's time the world stood up to Iran. There is no other country in the world that has repeatedly attacked the United States and/or it's foreign interests - and yet no retaliation.

The political regime of Iran has repeatedly attacked America and other sovereign nations. Iran financially and logistically supports terrorism.

Besides Iran, terrorism has no official address. Today, militant terrorist groups are using "politics" as a method to get themselves "democratically elected in" by the mob
and then go to the world to get acceptance.

The HAMAS political party was democratically elected in which granted many of their members both immunity and potential world recognition. The problem is that most of the political members are terrorists who have blood on their hands.

Today, the entire world has turned their back on the "Palestinian Cause". This is the worlds answer to any society who votes in terrorist leaders. This is a very sad lesson that the Palestinians are learning the hard way. But fuck it - if they we're stupid enough to vote in a terrorist group - then I guess they deserve it.

The same goes for Iran and any other country. The representation of the people is their government. If a government engages in an attack against another government, then war is legal act of retribution.

Fact is, America nor any other country attacked Iran. All of the killing so far has been primarily Iran and/or it's terrorist friends they support like the Hizbollah, Hamas, etc.

So yes, I agree that the Iranian people need to pay for this - and I believe that the bill is long overdue. Iran has not been made to pay for any of its terrorism. Meanwhile, as posted above, I prove to you that Iranian regime has kidnapped and murdered innocent people.

When is "enough" going to be "enough"?

When Ben Lauden was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, he was "wanted". When Afghanistan got it's independence, the Taliban took over and Ben Lauden became the next best thing to president. He realized his dream and tried to take it a step further.

You see, Ben Lauden sits in his hiding place dreaming about the day that he will be a legal accepted figure in the world with lots of power to exploit his Islam.

You must understand, in his sick fucking mind, his attack on America and other nations are legitimate actions. In fact, his people all believe the same. But if you think that he did those actions so that he could sit the rest of his days in hiding - your wrong.

In his crazy mind, the "means" have an "agenda". The militancy is a "means", its not an "objective". What I mean is that Osama doesnt kill - just to kill people. His killing is directly connected to his political agenda. Iran's fanatical country is nothing but a small proxy pilot example of Osama's bigger idea.

This is why Iran must be bombed. We must convince Osama Ben Lauden that there is no "political discussion" after terrorism is used. The world simply cannot accept the likes of Ben Lauden or the current leading members of the Iranian regime. There should never be any world acceptance of any government that includes members who have been involved in terrorism.

Therefore, the answer is NO, we cannot live in a world with IRAN. The world can force them to change their government and their actions - and most likely will force Iran's government out with an attack.

We need to kill the dreams of people like Osama Ben Lauden and Iran who really believe that their militancy will eventually turn into political gain. Iran's standoff with the world is all about political gain and recognition. The Iranians aspire to be considered a "super-power".

Just last week the Iranians sent (unsuccessfully) a demo-drone rocket into the outer space hemisphere. That technology could easily be used to drop a nuke on any European or American city.

Again, Iran doesn't instruct the Hizbollah to do terror unless there is a clear political objective. Osama and Al-Kaeda doesn't kill - just to kill people for the sake of dead bodies. The terror is always has been exclusively a method for political objective.

The world is at a cross roads. Do we make an example out of Iran and convince all future politicians that terror will never get them anywhere. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.

Or the Iranian cancer spreads and more governments are taken over by terrorists who are democratically elected by the mob - later only to gain world recognition as the "leaders" of their respective countries at the United Nations.

Muslims don't inherently believe that all man kind should die - so mass murder of the world is not on in the name of religion. Killing is always in the name of some crazy political objective. Religion is only used to unite people under a common flag - but lets face it, Mohammed Ata was not religious, he was just controlled by a strong desire to be a messenger that delivers power to the master.

Bombing Iran wont stop terrorism, but it damn well will convince other terrorists that they will never be accepted by the world community. Any society who votes in terrorists should be made to suffer by the world.

 

Just because Jordan abandoned its citizens does not make it Israel's problem. You would rather blame Israel than acknowledge that the plight of the Palestinian people is as much your country's fault as anyone. If you truly have a shit about the Palestinian people they would not be living in squalor in camps in Jordan, but would be peacefully integrated. So, piss off.

 

Jordan never abandoned its citizens, and also other refugees who live in Jordan, since long, Jordan's doors were open for its brothers, whether they are from Palestine, or from Iraq, to try to reduce the suffering of the victims of the Israeli and USA aggressions, as a Palestinian person who lives in Jordan, and hold its nationality, I appreciate very much this small, and limited in resource country, for giving me the chance, to learn and hold a university degree, and to work and earn my living with dignity, many who been in camps left them, for their own houses, and in many cases big houses, but that does not mean they will forget what is their right, and that will not replace their own country and make them repeat whatever propaganda and lies produced in the specialized Israeli labs,

in anyway, thats not our topic and I wonder why you jumped to it, and you seem like got angry? maybe if you tried to answer my question and have a focused discussion, then you won't feel angry, because I still did not understand what you meant when you said Israel, in the post prior to your last one?

 

You oppose the peace that has existed for decades and yet you demand that Israel keep negotiating. Your end game is clear. There is no debate when your desire is the end of the State of Israel.

Personally, I support the idea of a Palestinian state side by side with Israel. I have no desire to waste my time with people who refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist.

 

the right of exist would be based on facts, and truth, and the truth that I see, is Israel been established on the account of the original inhabitants of Palestine, in other words, they emptied a country from most of its people, and took their place and properties, against their will, does this give them the right of exist? even if it means declining this right from others? If so, on what bases?

I would be interested in knowing your answers, as for the quote you posted, you sometimes mention your annoyance over others who quote a part of a conversation, not all of it, yet you come and do the same, would be good if you had a link to the thread, so people who are interested in knowing more about it would find it easy to know.

edit: I m still interested to know if saying Israel for you is the same as saying Jews?

 

I did.

The link is the little green thing, , which I specifically included in the quote, takes anyone who is interested to the full quote and the entire exchange in the original thread.

There is no point to debate whether or not Israel is a state with you. The facts are what they are.

 

Thank you for explaining the purpose of this tiny arrow, I did not even notice it, for those who are interested in the full post, I m glad to make the effort of moving the mouse pointer a bit further when copying:

so we are back again to the same point, that peace is not a paper to be signed between two Governments, its something that is lived between the people of the two countries, I m not blind and quick to conclude that we have peace, when the foundations of peace do not exist, and when the reasons that made the peace atmosphere get lost in the first place, are still existing till these days.

the point we were discussing in case you lost it, was not whether Israel is a state or not, it was whether Israel is a legal state or not, and whether it has the right to exist or not right now, and the bases on which such right might be obtained.

 

I mean the internationally recognized current, modern, State of Israel that is a member of the UN. I mean the actual people who live in what is known is Israel.

Your welcome. I really do not like to clip quotes but I like to keep things concise. I always try to leave a link to the source I am quoting or previous post.

See above. We obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't think either of us is skilled enough to persuade the other and I am sure we both have better things to do than waste time just to argue about it.

 

imad, what would need to be done in your opinion to have peace? Would Israel have to not exist?

 

Hi Imad,

Prior to 1996, Jordan issued two-year passports to Palestinians who were resident in the West Bank when Jordan renounced all legal ties to the West Bank in 1988. http://www.mefacts.com/outgoing.asp?x_id=11006

But lets discuss the legality of the state of Israel. Should we use "history" (obviously, the Jewish people have a longer recorded history in the land of Israel) - or should we use simple current international law?

Well, the UN - which is the governing body of the world, recognizes Israel's legit right to exist. You may think that the UN (several hundred countries) we're all wrong and stupid when deciding, but that doesnt change the fact that the supreme legal body deciding who is a country and/or not is in fact the UN. Your case isnt against Israel, its against the UN, hence the world. They decide what is "legal" country is. So your wrong in saying that Israel is an "illegal country". The judgment was passed over 60 years ago and time isnt going backwords!

I really don't know how you consider yourself a Palestinian. Is it because you come from the West Bank or Gaza? Or is it because of family relation?

The fact is that the land of Palestine never had a self-governing body. It was always a land that was governed by invading countries. Prior to the Jews, the British had a "mandate" for 31 years, and prior to the English the Turkish we're here for over 400 years, and before them, the Egyptians. Nowhere in history did "Palestinians" control themselves or have self-government.

For the most part, the local "Palestinians" accepted whatever invading army controlled them - and paid their taxes dearly. NEVER did the Palestinians talk twice to the Sultan of Turkey who controlled the land. He was famous for cutting off their heads with his curved sword and then feasting with his comrades while the heads we're on the table.

As a result, the Palestinian people have never had any legitimate claim.

@ Imad - f you lived in Palestine but are governed by the foreign Jordanian government, then if the Jordanian government loses a war and then land you live on,then you basically lost your land. It's really that simple.

Wars are fought all over the world, and that is how they always end up. Before you bitch that its not right, just remember that the Jews we're both murdered and expelled from the land long before the Muslim religion even existed. Judiasm dates back thousands of years before Mohammed was born. Fact is, the Jews had a self-governing body dating back to days of the Prophet Samuel (about 400 years after the bible was given to Moses). Samuel anointed both King Saul and King David. You see, the Jews had a kingdom, a self-governing body, and according to the scriptures, King Solomon controlled the entire world at one time (foreign kingdoms would send a tax to Jerusalem).

Palestinians claim they have some tie to the land, but simply never had any legal representation. That's almost like buying a car without papers.

Let's say you we're born in E. Jerusalem in 1955. At the time, Jordan owned E. Jerusalem - so you are Jordanian. Now in 1967 Israel won E. Jerusalem land in the spoils of war.

In some cases, the only difference for the citizens is who they pay taxes to. In other cases, people are transferred. It all depends on what the new conquering army and political establishment decides. In this case, Israel turned a blind eye and left it to the Jordanians to handle. Afterall, these we're Jordanian citizens who paid taxes to Jordan and should have been taken care of by the Jordanian King. But the Jordanian king didnt beg the world for assistance in helping the Palestinians - rather instead he tried to murder them all.

Lets examine the facts. In the entire Intifada, over 5,000 Palestinians have been killed in clashes against Israel. Over 1,500 Israeli's are dead. Those are the sorry facts --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada

Now pay attention: King Hussein of Jordan and Syria's Haffez Assad killed more Palestinians than Israel in just one week. Most people are not aware of this because the orders we're executed in an era where the mass media didnt have so much coverage.

But lets look at what is publicly documented --> In one week, King Hussein ordered over 8,000 Palestinians murdered. I mean he fucking slaughtered them. It's called Black September for the Arabs but in reality, the majority of the killing happened in less than 1 week. According to some reports, as many as 15,000 people we're injured, and over 10,000 died or disappeared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Even in Lebanon (just recently) several hundred Lebonese we're killed in clashes with Palestinians. It's not like Lebanon owes the Palestinians anything. http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2374261

Btw - Palestinians have killed more Lebanese than Israel has killed Palestinians. Are you aware of that? Ever since Arafat showed up in Lebanon, all hell has broken loose. The land immediately suffered civil wars when the Palestinians showed up. Syria hated Arafat and tried to kill him at least 50 times. Spend some time on Google, I mean this shit is all very well documented.

Seems like wherever the Palestinians go, they find themselves fighting against the people who provide for them. The Palestinians never had any self-governing party - and at the rate they are going now that they do have an elected terrorist government, they will never have the pity or sympathy of the world.

King Hussein viewed the Palestinian causes as if its a cancer within his Kingdom. I view the Palestinians the same way. It pisses me off to see so many people without leadership and responsible behavior. The people have become a mod. The path they are taking is leading directly to hell. It pisses me off cause the people really do deserve better in life. Palestinian kids deserve more out of life.

If the Palestinians can find a non-corrupt leadership (out of a mob of angry, confused & tired people), maybe they have a chance. But they must first accept that the same body that will give them their own country is the same body that gave Israel a country. It's called the United Nations. If they want us to accept them legitimately, then they must do the same in return before negotiating. You cant negotiate with somebody who doesnt even think that your legal entity exists.

The United Nations decreed that Israel is a legal country. No more denial. The world will not take the so-called Palestinians seriously so long as the people do not recognize UN decree and international law. It's almost as if the Palestinians basically say the entire world can fuck off by engaging in terror and extortion, and then blame the same world for their bad situation.

If you think that a sovereign country with nuclear weapons is just going to walk away and disappear, your simply not in-coherent with reality.

 

South Africa?

Israel sooner or later has to recognize equal rights for all people living in the country which means the end of apartheid, the same as happened in South Africa.

 

SharePro, do you expect anyone to engage in a debate with you when you call an innocent soverign country a "cancer"?

btw, your other account is Dead Corn, i'm sure it is a permanent ban if you have multiple accounts.

 

You already know the answer to that is "Yes". "I Mad" wants a Jew-free world.

 

Israel free world or Jew free world? You are claiming that Israel means Jew, when infact there are thousands of Jews that disagree with Israel and it's policies of illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing. They also want an Israel free world, so it is outragous for you to suggest that he wants a Jew free world when he has never suggested such a thing.

Imad has brought respectable arguments to the table with proof that Israel introduced terrorism to the region, started the violence there and expelled people from their homes.

And all you have to answer is a silly ad-homineim insult?

 

You spelled ad hominem wrong, and used it incorrectly. I didn't attack "Imad, the Man". I attacked his half-witted ideas about Zionism. Deep down inside, Imad would most likely be very happy if their were no Jews he had to deal with.

Of course he'll never admit that, but anti semitism is at the center of his feelings towards Israel.

Now what exactly did you add to the thread with your insipid reply to me?

 

So, how do you know what he thinks now? Are you inside his mind? Anti semetism is not the feeling of his hatred towards Israel, because there is also many other Jews who have the same feeling as him towards Israel, are they also anti semetic?

How can dislike towards a state, be anti semetic? I have already explained Israel does not represent the Jewish people, because there are many Jews against it, so to call it anti semetism is just wrong.

What his hatred is from, is the fact Israel illegally occupies his fellow brothers, expells them from their homes and bulldozes down their houses.

Israel does these things, which makes people hate them and then there are people like you and Sharepro saying things like "WHY DO YOU HATE US? " lol, it is quite clear, you give us every reason in the world to hate you, so do not complain when we do so.

 

So do you...