Sir: Mohammad PBUH in the Bible

If you hate a country that much, you should take the time to learn how to spell it correctly.

 

It is not a quick judgment at all. I was indoctrinated into one of the Abrahamic religions for the first 20 years of my life. I have spent two decades asking questions about these things, and another wondering why people twist them so badly. Abraham had a son with his handmaiden, the firstborn and heir to all of Abrahams land. He then had another son with his wife who he believed was too old to have a child and then gave the land to him, and Ishmael and his mother where left with nothing.
Re-read the thread if you think there was not a problem with Abraham's sons. Re-read your holy books.

To be a prophet does not make one perfect. To be incapable of fault is not in the definition of prophet as a word, it is something you wish to add to it. If you wish to believe that a prophet cannot make mistakes that is your choice but it does not make it true.

The Middle East has been fighting wars before the word American was ever spoken. As an American, if Israel is my master then who is yours? Israel does not control the American government, money and power does. It just so happens the Israeli lobby has a lot of both. Regardless, it is off topic but not unexpected that you would take this moment to attack those two countries.

 

People can read the thread and check what kind of information is right what is wrong.

there was no problem between the sons of Abraham, that is true.
the problem happened many years after him.

Best wishes.

 

Islam is the 100000000000% Truth All are Know abt this.
all are know Muhammad P B U H are truth Prophet Millions of proof.
but many are like this verse
" have eyes but blind have ears but are deaf"
I Hope Soon World Know right ways of living & know islam 1 & all.

 

You are funny.

 

I would like to ask these things in sincerity. This is not "muslim-bashing," nor is there an agenda in place. I have been piqued to ask them by a re-read of a series I got as a child, "Time Life: Great Ages of Man," and even then, was captivated by Muhammad's story as discussed in the installment, Early Islam. (Went to a book sale yesterday, found the entire series for pennies on the dollar).

So, questions, in good faith; Muslims, please see these as so, others, please don't use this as an opportunity to serve any pre-conceived agenda:

1. Is it true that in an early attempt to win the support of the Jewish landholders surrounding Medina, Muhammad adopted some Judaic practices - fasting on Yom Kippur, praying towards Jerusalem? Also, the early use of other Christian or Jewish customs as calls to prayer - the wooden clapper, the ram's horn - later abandoned for the muezzin. I am confused by the perception these adoptions were for fairly Machiavellian intents, and not out of "revealed prophecies."**** Discuss?

2. Muhammad ordered the execution of 600 Jewish men clan members (from inside Medina) via decapitation, and the enslavement of the clan's men and women, after learning of their negotiations with the Quraysh of Mecca - people, as I read it, with whom they had a longstanding alliance with regardless (with the idea of tribal alliance itself a longstanding practice). True? I have to admit my modern mind bristles at such an act, and would ask for a discussion.

3. Certain elements of Islamic life - the Kaaba stone itself, the idea of pilgrimage, for instance, at least from my read of it, derived from atavistic, Arabic, pagan life. Again, given the idea of a "revealed" prophecy, how can this build on the practices of previous centuries in pagan life?

4. Under the early caliphate, why were "people of the book" - Jews and Christians - permitted to practice their faith, but required to pay a special tax? Given the idea of "no religion by compulsion," I find this a confusion, and were another caliphate established, would this same tax be implemented? How about atheists?

I hope for a good faith discussion, based on reason and with the hope of learning from one another. I am not interested in anyone trashing anyone, from any persuasion.

**** My use of "revealed prophecies" in quotes is not a comment on Islam, but as I am an atheist, my lack of belief in prophecy itself.

 

I'll answer this as best i can.

Yes this is true untill the revelations and instructions came to him, because remember all the revelations did not come at once. The torah was the first revealed book from God and the Bible the second one and the Quran (Recite) the third, so one or two practices were adopted untill revelations came on what to do.

You can read about this here - http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/seerah/0005.htm

Nobody worships the kaaba, they worship God.

Yes, but it was not a bad thing, most of them enjoyed the concept of dhimma and the luxury of it, as they would not be treated better in any other land. From the book "A history of the Jewish people"

People of the book are Jews and the early Christians that only worshipped one God, not the polytheists Christians of modern times.

 

My befuddlement comes from the presumption of Muhammad's perfection as a human being. If my timeline of history is correct, he needed the Jewish landholders' support, and so adopted their practices into early Islamic practice; when he didn't gain the support, he abandoned the practices, and declared that the Jews had distorted the Torah. If this is true, again, this raises a question, in my mind, of the idea of an immutable life.

I have a few problems here:

"Sedition" implies "incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government." In fact, as I understand it, there was a longstanding alliance between the Jewish tribe (Banu Quraiza) and the Meccan Qurasyh. If that is so, it seems to me, it cannot be construed as "sedition" against an existing government.

Further, I am sorry - but the rest of the account:

Doesn't help me to understand the justice here.

Aside from the fact this seems to me to be a historical justification after the fact, written, in my opinion, in the same vein mouthed by Bernadette Devlin, appraising the Irish Conflict, namely, "God is always on the side of the winners":

I am troubled by the apparent incongruity between "no compulsion in religion" and:

Further, I simply cannot understand the justice of mass-killing the male members of the tribe, and selling the women and children into slavery. Again, this was an existing alliance between the Meccan Quraysh and the Jewish landholding tribe, not a kind of treachery of ex-allies - correct? If so, how can this action be justified?

It isn't even clear to me that this tribe took up arms against Muhammad's soldiers. Even if we make the assumption that this was so, that the Jews of Banu Quraysh actively warred against the Medina Islamic warriors, is it to be presumed that all enemy combatants are to be treated thusly, exterminated? If not, isn't this an inconsistency?

I don't know that it was ever worshipped. I know the place was a shrine, and a site for pilgrimage, from pagan times, and this seems to have carried over into Islamic practice, to include kissing the stone in reverence today - correct?

But they are still, in essence, underclass people, correct? Much as they would be under a new caliphate? I'd ask, as well, again, what of atheists?

Secondly, to pay a tax for "protection" - well, a sincere question, Thraxed, how does this differ from so-called "protection" money in modern day rackets? If I've gotten it wrong, I'd appreciate more of a discussion.

 

northpointaiki: You will get best answers to your question here http://www.islamtomorrow.com, you can access live chat there. If you realy want to learn. Or try contacting Sheikh Yousuf Estes from there.

 

Wmghori, I am an atheist, and quite content with my philosophy - however, thank you for the site, and I will explore.

My interest is in history, and in that context, my re-read of some events in early Islam have raised some questions. Many of my discussions with Muslims here have been fruitful, and center on the notion that what is detailed in the Qu'ran must be looked at from a contextual, historical perspective. These questions came to me by looking at that history, and I would hope for a discussion along such a historical line.

 

You are a half muslim by being an atheist (La ilaha: there is no god).

Not trying to convert you or anything. My point was normaly in the forums like this people don't discuss religions rationaly instead they go out bhashing each others beliefs (I might have done it too knowingly or unknowingly) so its best to ask who is most qualified to answer if you are seeking knowledge (that dosen't mean you are looking to convert).

 

Hahahah.

I understand and can appreciate both your thoughts and intent here, Wmghori. Though I am an atheist, I am open to reading anything, anytime, so sincerely, thanks for the link.

 

Hi brother northpointaiki;

143. Thus We have made you [true Muslims - real believers of Islâmic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his Sunnah (legal ways)], a Wasat (just) (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind[28] and the Messenger (Muhammad PBUH) be a witness over you. And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad PBUH) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger). Indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allâh guided. And Allâh would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem). Truly, Allâh is full of kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.

144. Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's PBUH) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Harâm (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what they do.

145. And even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) all the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they would not follow your Qiblah (prayer direction), nor are you going to follow their Qiblah (prayer direction). And they will not follow each other's Qiblah (prayer direction). Verily, if you follow their desires after that which you have received of knowledge (from Allâh), then indeed you will be one of the Zâlimûn (polytheists, wrong-doers, etc.).

146. Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise that (Muhammad PBUH or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad PBUH which are written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)][29].

147. (This is) the truth from your Lord. So be you not one of those who doubt.

148. For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allâh will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allâh is Able to do all things.

149. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what you do.

150. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and wheresoever you are, turn your faces towards, it (when you pray) so that men may have no argument against you except those of them that are wrong-doers, so fear them not, but fear Me! - And so that I may complete My Blessings on you and that you may be guided.

 

Well, as a starting point, what I have differs. Muhammad very much did have an agreement with the Jewish tribes, codified in the Constitution of Medina; among its tenets:

(16) To the Jew who follows us belong help and equality. He shall not be wronged nor shall his enemies be aided.

(24) The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.

(25) The Jews of the B. ‘Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.

(26-35) The same applies to the Jews of the B. al-Najjar, B. al-Harith, B. Sai ida, B. Jusham, B. al-Aus, B. Tha'laba, and the Jafna, a clan of the Tha‘laba and the B. al-Shutayba. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The freedmen of Tha ‘laba are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.

(36) None of them shall go out to war save the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound. He who slays a man without warning slays himself and his household, unless it be one who has wronged him, for God will accept that.

(37) The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims their expenses. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. They must seek mutual advice and consultation, and loyalty is a protection against treachery. A man is not liable for his ally’s misdeeds. The wronged must be helped.

(38) The Jews must pay with the believers so long as war lasts.

(46) The Jews of al-Aus, their freedmen and themselves have the same standing with the people of this document in purely loyalty from the people of this document. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. He who acquires ought acquires it for himself. God approves of this document.

As to Jewish customs being incorporated in early Islam, a separate source from the one I earlier read had this to say:

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/MUHAM.HTM

And from the Qu'ran itself:

Hence, unless I've missed something, it is historically accurate to say that he did incorporate Judaic customs, before changing them. Correct?

 

best wishes dear brother