Seriously, I've heard a lot of things but when someone label whole nation being "genocidal" it goes beyond any rational thinking. Believe me, I don't feel "genocidal" at all and I don't feel the need to commit any genocide any time soon. I don't even know what exactly a claim that whole nation is "genocidal" should mean. Can we say for Germans, because of Holocaust, that they are "holocaustical" or "genocidal"? That doesn't sound intelligent at all, right? So can someone expalin to me how whole nation can be "genocidal"?
I have enough trouble trying to fathom how ANYONE could be genocidal. But history is what it is. Maybe it's a prevailing state of being. I certainly believe that 90% of every german alive above the age, let us say, 15? knew perfectly well what was going on at the time. I believe the same would go for the U.S. during the eradication of the Native American. The key is to villify the target and season it with a common surge of nationalistic gain. When you villify you reduce the target to something less than human. You also appeal to the lowest common denominator in people. You give them a false sense of pride. You lie to them. And you lie to them. And you lie to them. You tell them that the Native American is a savage. You tell them that the jew is a parasite. And you take whatever they have and you dole it out to the "common folk." You take Oklahoma and you parcel it out to home-steaders, it's much easier to sell the destruction of a people to the next in line, who in this case were mostly down-on-their luck folks dying for a chance to make good by the sweat of their brow. Their sweat, their predessors blood, but, no matter - they were savages anyway. Ever wonder what became of the jews homes and apartments and businesses in Germany once they were taken away from them? You guessed it - they were doled out to their friends and neighbors - who were only too happy to move in, and do their nation the great service of looking the other way as their children's friends were turned into lamp shades. Afterall, these jews were just parasites afterall. (Incidentally, this was also a common occurence in Poland. Deport and kill the jews and reward the most vehement Poles with their old neighbors homes and businesses). The demolition machine must be fed by propaganda and money. Everything about it appeals to the worst in human nature. False pride. Avarice. But it is the mistake of current historians to concentrate solely on Hitler's propaganda machine and ignore the basest instincts of human nature. Before Hitler rose to power Germany was in the pits. There was little to hope for. Once Hitler got the machine going he oiled it with growing jobs in the military and private sector. But he really kicked it into gear with this jew bull-shit. An easy target with which he could whet the appetites of his most avaricious supporters. He could promise chicken farmers and common butchers that they were too special for words. And prove it by handing over a nice brown-stone in Hamburg, or a good stationary business in Bonn. I wonder, if it really came down to it, how many of us would have done anything different? I don't trust human nature. Not even my own. It's partly why I bow down to a higher authority.
Almost 40% of Germans supported the anti-facist parties and Hitler never had a majority. He took power after the Reichtag fire and passage of the enabling act. Following the appointment of Adolf Hitler as chancellor on January 30, 1933 by president Hindenburg, the Social Democratic Party of Germany received 18.25% of the votes during the last (at least partial) free elections on March 5, gaining 120 seats. Between 1936 and 1939 some SPD members fought in Spain for the Republic against Franco and the German Condor Legion. After the annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938 the exile party resettled in Paris and after the defeat of France in 1940 in London. Only a few days after the outbreak of the World War II in September of 1939 the exiled SPD in Paris declared its support for the Allies and for the military removal from power of the Nazi government. During the years of the Weimar Republic the KPD was the largest Communist party in Europe, and was seen as the "leading party" of the Communist movement outside the Soviet Union. It maintained a solid electoral performance, usually polling more than 10% of the vote, and gaining 100 deputies in the November 1932 elections. In the presidential election of the same year, Thälmann took 13.2% of the vote, compared to Hitler's 30.1%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany
No one has any right to paint an entire nation with the same brush. Certainly, many mistakes and war crimes were committed during the war, but an entire nation cannot be responsible for it. I still don't understand why these people fought? Just because they had a different religion? Or they had different ethnicity? War was unfortunate and painful. Hopefully, there will always be peace in that region of the world...
The Germans were slighted after WW1 and had serious economic problems, basically they had plenty of reasons to fight. Hitler used this to seize power and the Holocaust was well under way before it became common knowledge what the plan really entailed. I sometimes wonder if Hitler had stopped at France would anyone have even said a peep about it. People can be fooled into a war of Genocide and I sometimes think it is human nature to avoid ugly truths and thus be fooled into ugly action.
no nation per se is genocidal...but some nations are easily "stoked" by nationalist and separatist promises and they go to war with other nations but they dont fully understand why...nor are they able to explain their reasons in an intelligent manner... its like in agriculture theres more and less fertile soil like theres nations with more or less potential for being a puppet...it depends on circumstance like the crops depend on rain and weather...
I like that analogy. You also can never be sure what the crop will yield until the season is over, just like its hard to tell what a government or politician will do until they have been in power for a while.
I think our species is "genocidal," sadly. Consider the Yale/Milgram studies as a sad commentary on how stupid we can be, how little we have left behind the primordial ooze from which we claim to have been freed. I know of no nation, no "group" of people more prone to genocidal behavior than any other.
If anyone done any "stoking" I am aware of it was this man: Slobodan Milosevic. Anyone here just need to read your posts and read what and how freaks like Milosevic and like Karadzic is done something he would agree with me that Milosevic and his fellows did great "stoking". When I read your posts I see exactly the same stuff those two used (and their other fellows like Milan Martić) to convince "more fertile soil" to start wars and commit so many war crimes including genocide. Talking about being puppet... According to you we're all monsters anyway, right? Israel is a state,a creation, not nation. You can say that current Iran is evil but that doesn't mean Iranian nation is evil, does it?
The lengths you guys go to just to say shit about Israel is astounding. You guys don't care how hypocritical it is, how much you need to twist and contort, how absurd it makes you look, how it damages the very causes you claim to support. If it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny.
The lengths you guys go to just to defend Israel is astounding. You guys don't care how hypocritical it is, how much you need to twist and contort, how absurd it makes you look, how it damages the very causes you claim to support. If it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny. Again, state is not equal nation. Nazi Germany was not equal entire German nation but when comes to Israel and defending it and attacking anyone who criticize it you don't care how hypocritical it is, how much you need to twist and contort, how absurd it makes you look, how it damages the very causes you claim to support. Hypocrite.
Welcome to every nation-state on earth. Every nation state is a created entity, by a host of criteria, and none of them have any primordial import. Language? Ask Canada, Belgium, or even France, at the time of the Revolution, when des Langues d'oïl still held sway in a country ostensibly homogenously "French." Ethnicity? Ask the U.S. Religion? Tribal Groups? And so on. You are completely off base in somehow seeing Israel as a breed apart from any other nation-state by its "created" genesis. Take a look at the work of Ernest Gellner, Eric Hobsbawm, Benedict Anderson (Imagined Communities), for starters, then come back.
Nazi Germany was a state, nation, reich, etc. The semantic games you play serve no purpose and add nothing to the discussion.
all this coming from a guy who celebrates one of the biggest acts of ethnic cleansing in history (according to the united nations) as a national holiday...sure milosevic had tons of stoking to do "serbs we already have everything all our people live in one country" unlike franjo "im a separatist and need my own private country and iggisick cant explain why!"...its not like serbs went and planted bombs and hijacked planes in new york like franjos croat separatists LOL...talk about stoking... coratia would be a nation too only if you ALL stopped speaking SERBIAN LOL...it aint croat and it aint serbo-croat and it sure as shit aint croat-serbian as you liked to call it LOL...throw in all the ethnic cleansing and murder during WW2 and the ethnic cleansing during the bosnia conflict and you have a "creation" ( creation sounds like croatian LOL) ...until you make up for yourselves your OWN language you are a vatican cr(o)eation and a former nazi puppet (accoring to wiki) LOL
I don't see it that way. Former Chechoslovakia= state but there was not chechoslovakian nation. There was two separate nations: Chehs and Slovaks. Oluja wasn't act of ethnic cleansing no matter how much you try to paint it like that and we're all proud of Oluja no matter how hard you try to show it as something bad. And I didn't know Busic was Franjos separatis. Have source to confirm your claim? I doubt that but than you hardly have any source to back up your silly claims. If we're gonna use your logic than we can talk also about how Yugoslav secret police was killing political opponents in all over the world. A week or so ago one of their members got convicted in Germany under charges of murdering croatian political emigrant Stjepan Durekovic. Just google Prates and you'll see what I am talking about. Former Yugoslavia=terrorist state. Your words speaks what are your feelings about my nation and than noone should be surprised how could someone like Kardzic was done all those war crimes including genocide. You know, "more fertile soil"...
Yup, former Yugoslavia was a state but there were several different nations in it. Actually they tried to form new nation Yugoslavians but only minority accepted it.
You've entirely missed the point, Iggysick (and Thraxed). What defines a "nation" in "nation-state" is entirely a constructed reality. You have provided Czechoslovakia devolving into the Czech Republic and Slovakia as an example, and presumably you have ignored my example of Belgium - composed of "French" Walloons and "Dutch" Flemish. The United States is very much a multi-ethnic, heterogenous grouping of people definiing themselves as "American," and so on. I will ask you to please try to see past your agenda, to consider the examples I provide, and the body of work earlier provided in the "Imagined Communities" notion of nation-statehood. Bottom line: what tie defines people who will never meet one another as a "people" such that they would call themselves so, rather than the various things that distinguish them from one another? This is an imagined collectivity, held together by a host of criteria, and, I will say again, no one "solution" - not ethnicity, religion, regional history, class, and so on - defines "nation" across all peoples.
As I said: I see it the way I presented it. For example if I say US is terrorist state it doesn't mean that I believe all Americans are terrorists but it sure does mean that I see US state as terrorist one. When I say "state" I mean all those institutions that forms one state: government,military forces, police forces, birocracy etc.