New Bush Legislation Uses Religion to Deny Federal Funding to Womens Clinics

Ahh please show me...

I twisted nothing. You are twisting the law, any idiot can see that.

It's murder when someone other than the woman decided to end the life of the child, it is totally different. You are trying to make the law up to mean what you want it to be which only shows how desperate you are.

Umm well considering the Supreme court does not agree with you, and I did put my 2 cents into it, being the child is not a citizen by the definition of the law. But yep act like nothing was put out there, when you in fact are trying to give a fetus legal definition it does NOT have.

In YOUR eyes, yet not in the eyes of the law, I wonder why that is? hmmm

You seriously are this idiotic aren't you?

Since when does every 'constitutionalist' agree with each another? If he felt it was directly unconstitutional he'd be for the feds intervening! Which he is not, he feels it's a STATES rights issue.



You are turning out to be nothing more than an annoying troll, using his own morals and 1/2 truths and blatant lies to further his agenda.

Problem is I know something, unlike you

 

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Alright click on your username. Go to show all posts from your account and start reading.

Still refusing to show how I twisted the law. Any idiot can see you obviously do not know what you are talking about. You have yet to debate from a real standpoint besides your petty brush offs.

By your logic right there its not murder if a woman kills her kid. you do realize that makes no sense. You admit its killing a child when somebody else does it. But you refuse to accept the same when the mother kills the kid. That is some twisted logic right there.

Again by this logic here you are proving yourself to be a sick individual. The supreme court's opinion does not mean they are right. Hell to use that argument there then you are saying that separte but equal was right because the supreme court said so. Along with many other disturbing rulings.
The court was wrong as it has been many a time.

Again as I just stated.

Because I actually make sense when I debate? Sorry you cant keep up. And reported as well.

There are quotes out there of him stating that it was unconstitutional.

Can you speak? You have thousands of posts of junk in this p and r category.
And what agenda am I trying to further?

Cant wait to see it

 

Good post Grim. Glad someone else does their homework as well...

Here we go. Either Guerilla will kill me for what I'm about to type or he will commend me on my research of Ron Paul....where is Guerilla when we actually NEED him to talk about Ron Paul and clarify his position....

As Grim pointed out to you tidusyuna, you really have it all wrong here. Ron Paul, from a personal standpoint, is against abortion yes. Ron Paul does not believe abortion itself is unconstitutional though because it is "murder". He believes the Roe vs. Wade decision was unconstitutional. There is a difference here and you twisting it all around to fit what you believe, not how it really is.

Ron Paul believes the Roe vs. Wade decision was unconstitutional because the Federal Government should not be making moral judgements at all. His personal feelings don't factor at all into it. The Supreme Court acted as lawmakers and not interpreters of the law, which is their primary function. Ron Paul believes the Fed needs to step out of moral decisions such as these, and leave it up to each individual state.

So to sum it up, Ron Paul doesn't believe abortion itself is unconstitutional, but to him the Roe vs. Wade decision was.

So to justify your beliefs that abortion is morally wrong/unconstitutional by using Ron Paul as your spokesman, you are going about it totally the wrong way. He wouldn't want the federal government to ban it or make it illegal at all....

 

QUOTE BATTLE!

Again, the moment the government has legal control over a woman's uterus, they have control over a man's balls. Thus, as I said before, I hope they start castrating people who fail a simple IQ test.

That'll teach all those idiots who think they should have control over their junk!

Again: The government needs to stay the f**k out of the lives of men and women.

 

I have to add that I really don't understand your point of view tidusyuna. You are completely entitled to your point of view and I won't go around trying to give negative rep to someone who doesn't share my same views (*ahem* like the person who gave me the "retard" rep today for this particular thread, grow up. If I tried to hurt everyone that didn't agree with me on a daily basis, I wouldn't have time to do anything else!).

I don't know if you are an American or not, but it pains me to listen to people like you who want to force their opinions on everyone because you think you are right. If we allowed the government to start morally policing everyone, don't you think it would take away so many things that make this country great, like I don't know, primarily FREEDOM?

You are totally stuck on this abortion issue and I am voicing my objections to what Bush is trying to do because it affects my right as a woman to even use birth control. Abortion is a touchy issue, I agree, because people have different moral views on when life exactly begins, but lumping in birth control with abortion is totally wrong for Bush to do.

This boils down to choice. You want to take away choices from me. And to me, choices = freedom. I enjoy having the choice to decide what I want to do with my own body and decide when I'm ready for children. You, or anyone else, doesn't have a right to take that away from me.....

 

Ahh so accusations you can't back up.

I showed it to you clearly, it's too bad you're too daft to see.

Not at all, a fetus at a certain point is NOT a human being, NOT by law!
I don't know how much tighter your hand can be held.

It is killing the child when a THIRD PARTY DOES IT as it takes the decision out of the hands of the ONE person who can decide it, the MOTHER! How you can not comprehend this is amazing!

Glad you know more about what the law is than the Supreme court does.
I am not a 'sick individual' for speaking the truth, a fetus is NOT a human being or a legal citizen, how can you not comprehend this? Do you love living in fantasy land?

Oh the fact that you know more about the law and the constitution than the actual law and the Supreme Court, interesting.

If lying and using 1/2 truths and morals as a sound debate strategy is 'making sense' then yes I guess you make tons of sense.

BTW you are not even on the same level as me when it comes to debating, you have A LOT to learn, some facts would be nice for starters, not lies and crap you pull out of your ass.

Please show it.............

He has said over and over he believes it's a states right issue, NOT a federal issue. If he thought it was unconstitutional he'd be for outright banning it on the federal level! He also is not the end all on 'constitutional issues' now is he?

I speak just fine, I post in a variety of topics using FACTS not bullshit pulled out of my ass. Glad to know you stalk me enough to know how many posts I have in P & R. In this particular case your agenda is anti abortion using any means necessary, including 1/2 truths, blatant lies and totally insane and illogical posting.

You wouldn't see if it bit you in the ass, it's obvious you are a sick individual who believes his own lies as they are fact.

 

I too believe that abortion is wrong and a fetus is a life however, I still think it boils down to the decision of the woman carrying the baby to decide if she should murder it or not. It is her body. I know several women that received abortions in their teens and say the decision haunts them to this day some 20years later.


Off topic. Several states have laws that treat a death of an unborn baby as murder. If a person kills a women that is pregnant the person that committed the murder will be charged in the death of 2 people not one

 

I just showed you where to look.

Nope

Laws can be wrong. By biological definition it is a human being all along.
Not all laws are right and just unless of course you believe that is the case.
I never said the law dictated otherwise. I have been saying the law is wrong so why dont you focus on that instead of keep reminding me that the law disagrees. That has been your entire argument so far when it really has nothing to do with what I have been saying.

I comprehend the sick point you are trying to make but I am just showing how it is not logical and how it contradicts itself. You are saying that killing a baby is only murder if done by somebody other then the mother. That is sick.
The baby gets killed no matter what. And again. I am pointing out how the law is messed up and wrong here. So why dont you keep things in context and stop acting as if I am retarded and think otherwise. Plus an interesting thing is that the father gets no say in it at all which is ridiculous because it is his baby as well. I bet if he killed the child he would be in for murder.

Since they prove to be incomptent time and time again. And I have already gone over how they messed up. Even if you disagree about the right to life applying to a fetus one cannot honestly say that the right to privacy extends to a womans womb. The right to privacy is not even mentioned in the constitution and it has to be interpreted in by judges through a couple of admendments. And nothing you have ranted yet is close to the truth.

I know more then you. And again you focus on trying to say that I do not know the current laws when I was just saying that the supreme court was wrong as they have been many a time before.

Show me where I have. Oh wait! I havent. Thats right.
I think my points are a lot better then yours where you
ignore what i am saying to go off and say things that are not related
taking things out of context
and name calling

Pretty sure I would win in a formal debate if you argued like this. Even if my facts are not 100% accurate.

I will be on your level when I lower myself down to your standards and start to cuss you out and misquote people and take things out of context and ignore the blunt of somebodys point.

Nobody is are they? Not even you nor I. Which is why I was sort of looking for a mature debate. No matter what you say there are a lot of people out there who sees abortion as being wrong on a constitutional level so there must be something in that document to support it to a degree. Nothing is clear cut in the constitution anymore. Everything is up to interpretation by the judges. But you would much rather sit here and cuss me out and call me names then to have a mature discussion. Roe v wade is one the most controversial cases ever because the ruling was based on something that was not even mentioned in the constitution and we all know now the entire case was a fraud.

Here you are cussing again. You dismiss my posts as bullshit yet I have posted nothing any worse then you have. I believe what you are doing is more bs then anything else. And I have not used any half truths or lies yet. You have not been able to show me any specific examples. You just dismiss them as being so without any real proof.

You need to grow up and learn to debate without name calling and cussing me out publically.

 

Actually it isn't. it's an embryo, then a fetus that is on the way to developing into a human being. In almost the entirety of the embryonic development the cluster of cells is almost indistinguishable from that of a fish. We even develop gill slits and tails (as do all vertebrates from remnant DNA that controls embryonic development), Only to have them reabsorbed after certain genes kick in that say "stop! no tails! make legs!".

The point at which a fetus becomes a person is much debated, and it's a very important debate. And in all honesty you offer nothing to the debate by proclaiming that a fertilised egg is a person and that it's wrong to kill a person. These are merely your reactionary (and no doubt religiously motivated) opinions.

 

Actually it is.
It is conceived and created through the combination of sperm and egg.
From there life begins.
From there an unique genetic makeup exists
from there growth and development occurs
responds to stimuli
etc etc etc

All definition of life. Since it is a human life we are dealing with ten biologically speaking a human life has begun. If that life is ended via abortion then it is killed.
And at the same time I never stated that the embryo was all that I was referring to. I am more concerned with abortion on a whole. Not just certain times in the development.

Plus I am far from religious. I am more atheist then anything

 

No, The process which eventually leads to a human forming has begun. But then, That isn't what you first claimed, was it. You initially said that it is a human all along, and that was incorrect, it's no more "human" than a skin cell or a sperm is. It casts doubts over the validity of anything you say when even the slightest amount of scrutiny forces you to rewrite your opinions in an even more contrived way.

For the first eight weeks it is an embryo (after zygote stage). It is a collection of cells, which while contain human DNA, Is indistinguishable from a fish at the same stage of development.

Again, we are back to the difference between reality and your personal opinion. Just because you need to believe it's a human to give your argument credibility doesn't necessarily make it so. It suggests that you don't oppose abortion because you think a zygote is a human, but that you have to believe a zygote is a human to justify your opinions on abortion.

As a matter of interest, What are your religious beliefs? It might shed some light on the reason why your argument is so facile. My suspicion is that you have ulterior motives to opposing abortion and are simply looking for a more socially acceptable justification than "invisible man don't like it", So you thought you'd try your hand at some 5th grade science mixed with making stuff up.

 

I stated that life Begins then. I never really said when it was a human until the last post when you started putting words into my mouth. But the fact is that life begins and it is human life. It is not the life of a cow, dog, or anything except for a human. Nothing will develop out of that except for a human. Hence human life begins. And once again I have never stated anything about any certain trimester or anything and I had not even mentioned anything about the devlopment until you started saying I had. There is nothing in any of my previous posts stating that its a human from conception.

Why yes it is. Irrelevant thoughh for the reason above. I never even mentioned anything about that until you started putting words in my mouth. And at the same time as stated it is still developing into a human. Even if it is not a full human it is still genetically one and it is still ALIVE.

No I am stating biological facts. It is biologically a human. Just not a fully developed one. And for all you know I may just be against abortion in certain trimesters. I have yet to state my opinion on that.

I just told you. I am atheist.

 

Great logic, you're a serial killed, go look at your posts, I wont dare show you exactly how you are but since I say it with nothing to back it up it MUST BE TRUE!

Umm yep

Laws can be wrong, so people should not have to follow the law? Your way of thinking trumps the law, very interesting. Actually you are wrong, by your morals you try to claim it is a a human/citizen all along, when in fact it is not.

It is not sick, it is the truth, you know those things called facts that you do not care for. The mother is the one carrying the fetus/embryo in her body NOT THE FATHER, NOT A THIRD PARTY. It is up to her within a certain set time frame to decide if she wants to carrry the baby to full term or not IT IS HER DECISION by law, of course if someone else terminates the pregnancy w/o her permission it could be murder as SHE is the only one who can grant that decision, 'possibly in the case of medical emergency others could?'

The only reason you can not comprehend this is your morals, not based on laws or the legal rights of the fetus that do not exists, yet you try to make 'logic' out of laws which is astonishing.

Stop acting retarded and I wont treat you as such.

Yet you use legal basis that is not backed BY ANY law for your cough 'logic'

The supreme court has ruled, like it or not that is currently the law of the land.

I side on the side of FREEDOM every chance I can, something it appears you do not. I am on record BTW as stating it should be a state issue, you know the same stance as RP

Don't make me laugh, in your little twisted mind you know more than me. You know lies and 1/2 truths, that is about the extent of it.

Calling someone an idiot who is an idiot is not name calling IMO. I have NOT taken out of context, you are the idiot who has posted the crap that you have.

Lies, well for starters RP stating that abortion itself is unconstitutional, that most constitutional scholars believe the act itself is against the constitution. That the constitution is clearly against abortion, shall I go on?

hmmm well this is not a 'formal debate' #1
#2 someone like you using crap for posts, 1/2 truths and lies would more than likely not be let into a 'formal debate'

Where am I misquoting? Please show.
Where am I taking out of context, please show.
Talk about lowering onesself, lol speaks the person who continues to throw lies out as if they were facts, trying to impose his morals as if they are the law.

Ok so now everything is up to debate, but before you stated if I followed the constitution I should be agaisnt abortion, which one is it? What side of your current story do you want us to follow?

A mature debate would include NOT LYING, once someone goes to your level of lies and misleading idiotic logic I do not have the time for a 'mature' debate as you have not deserved it.

If there is one thing I can not stand it's someone who pulls things out of their ass to try to prove their points, especially when it comes to MORAL issues.

Umm yes you have used mistruths and lies, are you actually this idiotic? Yet you wonder why I 'cuss' I can not stand idiots like you who are caught in lies yet still can not see them and still try to claim they are not lying. Can I make it any clearer than that for you?


When the stuff you post is as assynying as it is there is no real need for 'proof' Such as RP being of the stance that abortion itself is against the constitution, or that if you follow the constitution YOU MUST/SHOULD be against abortion as well.

You need to learn that respect is earned, try using facts and I wont hurt your feelings by cussing you out in front of the people.

Tissue?

 

I am serial killed? Cool whatever that is. And not like you have been able to point out anything either. Lets see you prove stuff for once.

Still a no

Did I ever say that? The answer is no but once again you are being retarded and refusing to actually debate. Instead you prefer to just make shit up and lie. I never once said that the law should not be followed. Nor did I say my thinking trumps the law. So that is just another example of you out right lying. I have caught you in 2 lies right there in just one paragraph.

I have been debating the law and how it was passed saying I disagree but not once have I stated that people should not follow the law.

Again I think this is ridiculous because it is not just her baby and legally the baby is both the fathers and the mothers. So if the baby is legally the fathers then why does he have no legal say in it? That is my point. But you will choose to ignore that and just dismiss this and make more crap up about me and twist my words into something that it isnt.

You are the one being the retard. Not me.

We have already been over this. I am not saying its not the law. I admit its the law. And not once have I stated otherwise. Since this is the debating section I thought I would debate why I felt the ruling was wrong. I never said that anything would be done about it. I am not sure why you are so retarded as to keep on stating that I have when I havent. Why are you taking this so seriously?

And again I also point out that the SC has made wrong decisions in the past. Which have been overturned at a later date. That is another part of what I have been saying but you keep on acting as if I am personally trying to change the law and stuff.

Havent lied yet but ive pointed out many from you.

Then I could safely calll you a moron because you are proving to be one. But thats not name calling is it?

Ive shown you on several occasions and you keep on ignoring it and going back to your same old crap of lying and misquoting and taking things out of context. I pointed out more of them above for you. But youre so stupid that you will just ignore that as well.

I havent lied yet. Unlike you.

Most our laws are based on moral issues. So what the hell is your point?

I know the feeling. I have been trying to talk to some idiot like that called GRIM for some time now. He just keeps on going and going with his lies and pathetic debating.

No thanks dont need a tissue yet. Maybe when you actually put up a real argument and not your lame ass bs as usual.

 

You're all making invalid and worthless points.

1. Issue is about Government. To hell with your morals.

2. Do you want the Government to have control over your reproductive rights?

3. Pro Lifers do, they want their finger up your ass and their hand shoved into a woman's uterus - making sure she has no say as to whether or not she wishes to have the child.

4. You're batshit insane if you think the Government should have control over reproduction. But, if they do get it, I hope they castrate everyone who is Anti-Reproductive Rights.

Man... You all just go on and on and on and on. I don't even think you care about what you are arguing by turning this into a air-filled "I'm right, you're wrong!" topic about the Morals of Abortions. To hell with your morals, morals are a social thing. The federal government has no RIGHT to decide on this issue - that state does, but we're talking about fed.

The reason you get two counts of murder for killing a pregnant mother is that the mother did not have an abortion, and was obviously going to have the child - thus that issue is settled. The reason you don't charge the mother with murder is that she is practicing her reproductive right to terminate a pregnancy.

Your religions, your morals, your concerns call all go to hell. This is the reproductive right of the mother. If the state wants to make it illegal, fine. Won't stop her from going to another state. The best way to combat unwanted pregnancy is sex education, or sterilization. These two however are unrelated to the core issue. It's her god damn body - f**k off.

 

My thoughts exactly, keep the governments fingers out of my anus.

 

That was the point, wow are you DENSE. You stated I do something, yet would not prove it, just as I said you are to show you how dumb and idiotic your thoughts are.

No actually you did. You stated and tried to use the lack luster logic of a woman killing her older kids, a stranger killing her fetus to equate to the same as a woman using a legal abortion method. You are not following the laws within your arguments, twisting them to equate to something totally different than what they are. I have not lied once, UNLIKE YOU.

Ahh but trying to use the retarded logic of a woman using legal abortion to the the same as the woman killing her older child or a stranger killing her fetus sure would appear to be just that by any reality.

The baby is in who? The MOTHER, in most cases who will be responsible for the baby, the birth and so much more, the MOTHER. I don't make crap up unlike you, if you're good at one thing it's pulling shit out of your ass.

I bet in your little bitty mind you honestly believe this. So what lie will you state next?

I am taking it 'seriously' because you have lied over and over and over again. Tried to use current law to twist what you feel should be the law overall. A third party killing an unborn child to that of the mother, a mother killing her older born child to that of aborting her fetus when she legally can. How you do not get this is astonishing, does your mental health professional approve of you posting on here?

Ahh sure they have, it's one thing to be against abortion, it's quite another to lie out of your ass like you have been doing. Such as 'RP believing abortion is unconstitutional, if you're for the constitution you'd be against abortion, etc, etc'

You are using current law to twist why abortion is wrong, wow you honestly don't see this? You are honestly about to meet my ignore button, you are so out of touch with reality it's shocking.

Are you serious? You have lied over and over and over again, I have not lied one fucking time. You seriously are this dense aren't you?

Ok let me hold your hand again..

The constitutions being clearly against abortion.
RP stating abortion is unconstitutional
If you're for the constitution you'd be against abortion
Need I go on. You don't believe those are lies?

Ahh I am using facts, I am making you look like the fool that you are w/o even trying. If I'm a moron that would make you what exactly?

LOL, it is you trying to wiggle out of the idiotic posts you stated. I did no such thing, I did not 'misquote' or 'take out of context'

I guess RP stating as you said abortion is unconstitutional is 'misquoting'

or that if RP says it 'which he didn't' all who believe in the constitution should as well..

You have lied multiple times.

hmmm the fact that most who are trully into the constitution and freedom are against so called 'moral' laws and are more into supporting laws because they physically hurt or take away property of a US citizen perhaps?

You can not be serious. You have lied over and over in this thread, you have been called on it. Yet with your head stuck firmly up your ass you still continue to use lies and 1/2 truths.

LOL, dude you are a joke. You are about the worst debater I have ever had the displeasure of arguing with, so bad in fact I don't even have to try. I pounded out this response in a few minutes, just coming back from my workout.

I don't need to be firing on even 10% of my brain power to defeat the brainless.

I honestly don't see why the above is so hard to understand, but as you've noticed as well some will try to twist it into something it is not.

 

It's really hard to get a full house with half a deck

 

you said "it is a human being all along" before i even posted in this thread, Those are your exact words. I don't really need to put words in your mouth, Enough inaccuracies and misinformation seem to fall out of it naturally.

Wrong again. The process that could potentially produce human life has begun. If your definition of "human life" is any cell or collection of cells that could potentially produce a human then you would have to apply the same logic to every ovum, every sperm and even every skin cell.

You said "it is a human being all along" before i even posted in this thread. those are your own words verbatim.

I don't see how you could be. You have already stated that killing a human is wrong and that an embryo "is a human all along". So unless you are going to contradict yourself immensely you surely have to be against abortion, at any stage, on the grounds that a human exists at the point of fertilisation.

Also, do you remember saying that you were "more concerned with abortion on a whole. Not just certain times in the development"?

 

LOL okay mate whatever you say.

Another lie. Not once have I stated a thing about a woman killing her older kids. And again I have not even cited a single law yet so I have not twisted any. Lie number 2 from you. Then lie number 3 when you say you have not lied yet.

The father is still legally responsible. What is so hard to understand about that. I think it would be fair for him to have some say in this. If the woman does not want a baby then she should use protection.

Okay sure.

You have yet to show one legit lie from me. And here are more lies from you. I have not tried to use the current law to twist anything. I have stated that I disagree with a supreme court ruling. And FYI the SC does not make legistative. So me disagreeing with a sc ruling does not equate to me twising a law. I have been stating reasons I think the law is wrong and why I disagree with the ruling. Again I ask why you are so keen on twisting that fact and acting as if I am doing something other then that?

Ron Paul believes Roe v Wade should be overturned. Roe v wade was a case in the SC. The SC handles constitutional issues. If Ron Paul wants to overturn a case done by the SC who handles constitutional issues then to me that would seem to me as if he believes it was unconstitutional.
You stated how he believes it to be a state right. I am not positive so correct me if I am wrong. But I believe the constitution mentions something about state rights and certain rights belonging to the state. So if I am correct on that then Ron Paul would believe the Roe V Wade case to be unconstitutional.

I have not twisted any law. There is that same old lie from you. It has been reiterated several times in this post and still isnt true.
Please do ignore me. I will be adding you shortly. You may think you are right but the thing is that no you arent. I am not 100% right and neither are you. That is why the roe v wade case is one of the most controversial. Because there is some gray areas. But no you have not kicked my ass at any debate. You have not provened me wrong on my points. For every argument you make there is a counter argument and then a counter to that counter as well.
So please stop with the personal attacks. No point in being a dick about an online debate.

I have already pointed out several of your lies. You have not really pointed out any of mine. I will go on below to disprove what you call lies.

The constitution being against abortion: there are arguments to be made in that. The right to life is there. You have your argument against it but again there are counter arguments as well. That is not a lie but an opinion which can be debated

RP and abortion being unconstitutional: I was mainly referring to Roe v wade and Ron Paul not so much as the issue of abortion itself but more so on the court case. Not a lie and if anything you could put off as an error but not a lie.

If youre....etc etc: an opinion again. Not a lie. Something that can be debated.

So I just proved that those "lies" from me were not really lies at all. Most were opinions that can be debated. You disagree with them so you put them off as lies.

Would make me a smart individual you is trying to debate online but is being held up by a guy that would much rather attack somebody then the issues.

You did so the other day to me in another topic as well and in this one as well. You always do it and will keep on doing so. You cana deny it all you want buy you do by mistake maybe? Who knows. But you do.

dude are you serious? Do not even start with that sense most laws are based on morals. law got started through morals. it all revolves around morals. anybody who has taken a government class and learns about the history of law starting at hanorabis (spelling?) code would know that. Laws are based on morals.

And not all moral laws hurt or take away property from people.

And so have you and I have called you on it.
And my "lies" arent lies as shown way up there.
And you cannot say my head is up my ass because I could say the same about you. You think you are right and I think I am right. So both our heads are up our asses.

And I just pounded you 'argument' in a few minutes.
Im watching tv and making out with my gf and still being able to do this with you. Talented eh

Genetically and biologically it is. If it is alive, which it is, then it is a human being. Look up the biological definition of life and let me know what you find.
That is all I will even say to you for now.