I wonder why this guy is never talked about on atheist blogs, talk about crimes against humanity. Milosevic buried in quiet cere Milosevic buried in quiet ceremony in his hometown http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...ral060318.html Last Updated Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:36:07 EST CBC News Former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was buried Saturday in Serbia and Montenegro, in a quiet ceremony at his family estate in the town where he was born. There were no clergy at the ceremony because Milosevic was an avowed atheist.
he was buried in his house so that people would not take craps on his grave... his father was a priest who committed suicide so go figure... as for crimes against humanity he was a monster but also a product of failed US foreign policy and political pressure... peace negotiations = "give up your land to separatists or the USA will bomb you" so in reality you can take any given politician and give him an offer he cant accept and then arm the opposition and viola! you have a bloody civil war... im not defending milosevic i dont give a crap im just pointing out how people like this come to power and how the whole region was pushed in to a bloody civil war because "negotiations were exhausted" and if the separatists dont get their "independence" right away the oxygen will run out and everybody will DIE!!! lol...it was an "urgent democratic intervention" by the US and its UN puppet to keep the "peace" LOL how funny is it that after the bloody civil wars montenegro and macedonia separated without a single bullet being fired?? looks like negotiations were not futile after all...but im sure somebody will pop on this thread and justify the 100.000-s of dead because "independence is worth dying for" and now they can pay tax to corrupt government X instead of corrupt government Y...
Here we go again with usual BS... Which land it was? Yours? That's why we didn't wanted to live you in same country in first place: you always considered Yugoslavia nothing more than a little bigger Serbia and that's why we never considered Yugoslavia us our country. Thanks God that joke of country is finito. You keep defending Milosevic altough you claim that he was a monster so can you please explain how would you make peace with monster? It doesn't make sense at all! It's like saying that you could make peace with Hitler thru negotiations. Sounds a bit unlogic, right? But, of course, he was a monster but we should've negotiated with him! Are you serious? Monte Negro got independent in 2006. when Milosevic was already gone and there was not serbs in Macedonia ( only 2.6% ) to be used as pawn for creating greater serbia. Unfortunately there was enough serbs in Croatia and more than enough in Bosnia for that so that's why we had bloody wars here. Again and again and again you're defending Milosevic and his politics which caused all that bloodshed. He and only he and his politics is cause of it and nothing else! And again you are insulting all those who died fighting against Milosevic's hordes. Get this once for all: we we're attacked, your beloved Milosevic tried to keep us in your BS country with force and we showed you what we think about it. It's disgusting how you still defending that monster after all misery he caused. And saying "independence is worth dying for" is justifying 100.000-s of deaths exactly how? Of course, with keep defending your beloved Milosevic you keep twisting facts and reality... Wouldn't be right question here: is keeping nation against their will in same country worth 100.000-s deaths? Judegeing by your posts it is...
you have to read my post again and take note of the part where i say "im not defending milosevic i dont give a crap"...you go on to accuse me 3 times of defending him? trust me im not afraid to speak out my opinion and id say if i was defending milosevic ok? macedonia and montenegro and (in some part) slovenia all got their independence with no violence...fact is: you could have had your country peacefully but NO you could not wait and 100.000-s died and your hands are just as bloody as ours...you pay tax to gov. X now instead of government Y hoooorah! i really dont care if you are happy then so am i & i truly wish you guys all the best... you said you cant make peace with a monster? how come we made peace with you after WW2? you killed off 100.000-s of jews and serbs in your nazi concentration camps and NO not all countries were like you only germany/italy/japan and austria anybody in doubt can google "croatia" and "nazi" dont take my word for it or even better wiki "italian puppet states"...peace is always an option even with monsters... oh and next time you call somebody "hordes" please stop using their language first eh? cause if were hordes you guys are speaking "hoard" and not "croatian"... admit it: you got greedy when they stoked you up with the independence crap and now the air is just like it was before and the crops grow just like before...the "independent sun" shines just the same and all your fighting was over who you will pay your taxes to...you wont admit your puppet like actions and you will continue to call your closest relatives (Serbs) "hoards" and try to wash the blood off of your hands AGAIN...i dont blame you i find it amusing...
Yes you defending him by finding excuses for wars he was responsible for. If that is not defending him I don't know what is. You again defending Milosevic and what he did... Fact is: we could get our freedom peacefully if there wasn't some war criminal named Milosevic who had idea to get as much of our land as he can get. Again, it's beyond my mind why do you keep defending him if you consider him a monster. He sent army on his own people and he was killing his politics oponents but he was innocent in wars in so called Yugoslavia?!? Give me a break! The man started it all! So we are monster for you and we could get our freedom peacefully?!? Do you serious believe in what are you saying? Why guys like you always forgeting how many croats fought against nazis including our own nazis? YOu need few history lessons I guess: ZAVNOH : And how about our first president Tudjman? Was he a nazi too? Was he a monster too? source But of course for you we are all monsters and you are angels... Hey! Does anyone wants to know why did we decided that we don't want to live in same country in which this guy,who consider us monsters, live? Btw can I see any source at all where did you made peace with NDH after WWII? Or are you caliming that all croats were nazis during WWII? Also, can you name a single country that was under nazi occupation and which didn't have local people who supported occupation and colaborated with nazis? Just one will be ok. Or,again, do you want to say that ALL croats were nazis during WWII? Seriously, I would like you to explain to me how we were monsters after WWII? I really curious to hear your explanation... Imho when people read what you claim here and then check few facts I think everyone could get idea why we didn't wanted to live with you in same country any more. It's ironic that you telling me about washing the blood of my hands... Vukovar massacre Dalj massacre Lovas massacre Široka Kula massacre Baćin massacre Ethnic cleansing of Lipovaca, Vukovići and Saborsko Škabrnja massacre Voćin massacre Bruška massacre Should I know start posting how many massacres your hordes did in Bosnia and than we can talk about blood on hands, ok? Are you saying that all those massacres were results of our will to get independent state? Who you trying to fool? People are stupid and can't read facts? Actually people like you are those who are responsible for all those massacres. Those who commited those massacres didn't tought that they are killing innocent people. They tought that they are killing monsters and everyone can see in your post that you are referring to us as "monsters"... If you think that government means my countyr that you have no clue about life. Governments come and goes but my country will stay mine forever and never ever again we won't loose our freedom even that means another 100,000's of deads. Ask any nation that fought for their freedom and you will hear the same answer.
That just goes to show a man living by his own laws can be acapable of anything, he then becomes his own god. The guy was a mass murderer and a devout atheist.
oh sure the croat separatist/opportunist hands are so squeaky clean...it had nothing to do with your separatism NOOOOOOOOO this was no factor at all lol...it was only milosevics fault not innocent innocent farnjo and alijas also the 100.000s of serbs living there were just shit out of luck eh? no you are defending franjo and alija...as much of "your land as possible"? how come it was YOUR land? because no name Franjo said so? i mean no name franjo tudjman just screams trust with the serb population...what about the 100.000-s of serbs that live there and did not want to live with you? or right were ignoring this ever so conveniently... ahahahahahahahaha! your ZAVNOH had like 3-4 meetings according to wiki and thats that?? wheres the part where croats fight nazis? i dont see it??? no he was just a separatist/opportunist mass murdered with blood on his hands just like milosevic and alija...quote wiki: Had Tuđman lived longer, he may have been brought up on war crimes charges by the UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague.[8] Graham Blewitt, a senior Tribunal prosecutor, told the Agence France Presse wire service that "There would have been sufficient evidence to indict president Tuđman had he still been alive." [9] The Tribunal's indictment of Croatian general Ante Gotovina lists Tuđman as a key participant in a "joint criminal enterprise" aimed at the "permanent removal of the Serb population from the Krajina region by force, fear or threat of force, persecution, forced displacement, transfer and deportation, appropriation and destruction of property and other means." franjo was just a jewel in the crown LOL...a true "patriot" and "hero" LOL...did you name a street after him? greed and nationalism... heres the first thing that comes up when you wiki croatia (text below)...the world does not seem to share your views?? The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska; NDH) was a puppet state[1][2] of the Axis powers. It was established on April 10, 1941, after the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was attacked by the Axis forces. It was technically a monarchy and Italian protectorate under its Italian-born King Aimone, Duke of Aosta ("Tomislav II") from the signing of the Rome agreements on May 19, 1941 up until the Italian capitulation on September 8, 1943, but the state was controlled by the governing fascist Ustaše movement. you were "monsters" during WW2 and we made peace with you and lived in peace with you right until you went back to your old ways with Franjo and his separatism and nationalism...post WW2 croats were peaceful people just like everybody else... but the links you posted below are all after your separatism and nationalism started? whats your point?? washing your hands from the nationalism and separatism? ignoring 100.000-s of serbs who live there? vukovar= 264 people / serb paramilitary dalj = 150+ people 1 year period /serb paramilitary lovas = 75 people / serb paramilitary siroka kula = 30 croats 4 serbs / serb paramilitary bacin = 56 people / serb paramilitary lipovaca,vukovici,saborsko = 50 people /serb paramilitary skabrnja = 86 people /serb paramilitary vocin = 32 people /serb paramilitary brushka = 10 people ======================== total death toll: 753 what is this compared to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm Approximately 150,000 to 200,000[7] Serbs fled approaching Croat forces to Serb-held parts of Bosnia and Serbia. The European Union Special Envoy to the Former Yugoslavia Carl Bildt called it on Aug. 7, 1995, "the most efficient ethnic cleansing we've seen in the Balkans." ok be sure to state how many "bosniaks" the corats killed too yes your separatism and nationalism were one of the key factors in the war... like me? im a complete pacifist if all people were like me there would be no wars... actually everybody can see you calling serbs "hoards" and if you read my post carefully you will see i use the word monster as an example of how you can make peace with somebody even former mass murdering nazis... sniff sniff whats that i smell? oh its you being out of arguments and repeating propaganda?? so youre willing to kill 100.000s so that you can pay taxes to government x instead of government y?? explain what exactly you got with your new country (i know you wont be able to im just pulling your leg LOL)
Again you defending Milosevic by equoling his role with Tudmans and Alias. Yeah, it was not all Hitler's fault at all... Well, it was our land, it is our land and it will be our land forever as I can see. If you feel the need to dispute that facts feel free to do so. Back it up with sources please. Talking to kids who have no knowledge of history is pointless. Franjo Tudjman and his brother weren't croats huh? Again you are defending Milosevic... If there was no war criminal called Milosevic there wouldn't be any wars on Balkan. Defending Miloseiv again... He wasn't nationalist huh? How about Srpska radikalna stranka? How many votes they get these days in Serbia? And can you explain how we were greedy? I'm curious to hear that too. Where does it says that all croats were nazis during WWII? Cany ou quote that one more time? Imho it's pointless to ever answer on something like this... Is that what they teach you schools? That all croats were "monsters"? And someone should be suprised of what happened in balkan wars?!? Gimme a break! You keep forgeting who came to power first and who started with natinalism. I wonder why... Oh! I know! I know! It was Milosevic so you need to defend him again... How many croats and bosniaks were expelled from homes in serb occupied territories? Can you post sources for that? Much much less than your hordes for sure. So the fact that Milosevic was a first who started with nationalism and talking about armed conflicts has nothing to do with it? Are you saying that if there were no Tudman and Alija Milosevic wouldn't try to take our land? Is that why you keep spreading hate against my nation? It sure doesn't look like pacifism when you claim that whole nation were monsters and that they become monsters again. I dunno, probably your pacifism is somehow unique... Actually everybody can see that I call people who commited those massacres and commited war crimes hordes (altough I should call them scumbags,filthy rats or something similar to that) and everybody that you call whole nation monsters and former murdering nazis. I would like to see where did I posted anything similar when I was talking about your nation. I even asked you do you think that all croats were nazis during WWII and you indirectly confirmed that. Check again what you post. How about Kosovo? The air is diferrent now when you lost it? How about taxes? Do you pay diferrent taxes now after Kosovo is gone?
i consider milosevic just as much scum as tudjman and alija and clinton...again you accuse me of defending milosevic? i shit on his grave...also on tudjmans...i hate ALL war mongers... hitler attacked all europe + the world...we did not attack you you lived in OUR country: yugoslavia! when i say OUR i mean (slovenians/croats/bosnians/serbs/montenegro/macedonia/minorities ect ect) so your example with hitler is out of place... no it was yugoslavia...you know "bratstvo i jedinstvo" (brotherhood and unity) the 6 republics and 2 provinces? 100.000-s of serbs living there? or was it just franjos??...the discussion is: who the hell is franjo tudjman ? why the hell should we trust 100.000-s to him? and it turns out our fears of franjo the war criminal were justified (not defending milosevic just stating that franjo is scum) ZAVNOH ahahahahahahha! post some links where they show zavnoh did a shit other than have 3-4 "meetings"...oh and be sure not to confuse it with AVNOJ or try to ride the surf of AVNOJ ...be sure to post the links! below are the conservative figures... Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 8,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 8,000 and 15,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime. The Croat authorities murdered between 330,000 and 390,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau. ZAVNOH ahahahaha! true...as ture as if there was not separatists/opportunists like franjo and alija there would not be any wars...(not defending milosevic just pointing out the scummy nature of franjo and alija too) when did i say anything nice about milosevic? sure he was a nationalist just like franjo and alija...the serbian radical party is an unfortunate product of the war and anti serb propaganda + US foreign policy...the west was not exactly "Fair" to the citizens of serbia and anybody who is against all this like the radicals gets the popular vote... greed is when you cant wait for years and years of negotiations with crazy milosevic...greed is when you cant explain what exactly it is you got with your independence other than paying taxes to government y instead of government x...greed is when you see fit to take arms and use your nationalism against others instead of trying to do what is best for your people and country: NO WAR ...greed is when land is valued higher than peoples lives...greed is when only you exist and want it all for yourself even though you already have it all...greed is when politicians make false promises of treasure and riches in the "new country" and you go to war over it...you know...greed... no this would be silly...you just have a nazi background and its well documented and when the separatists/nationalists ask for their own private country with 100.000-s of serbs there then it does not exactly scream trust right? i mean you aint exactly the swiss this does not mean to say that the croat government and nazi fathers and grandfathers represent the entire croat nation...the nazis were just a handfull of people in power and politics...this is just pointing out how your politicians dont exactly have the best of reputations (not defending milosevic)...the average croat does not give a shit about nazis or war and would rather get on with his/her life... you said "you cant negotiate with monsters" i replied with how we made peace with monsters after WW2...you called us monsters i called you monsters...i have croat friends and go to croatia often...if you think im some sort of hater/nationalist then this is very amusing also... milosevic did not want any new private country for himself (unlike franjo and alija) whats your point? we had 100.000-s living there are you serious? do you understand that no nation in the world would accept this YOURS INCLUDED...negotiations should have never been stopped... you dont want to go there bro lol...ill be forced to post ethic maps of the regions pre and post war and your country is going to look mighty bad if i do...can you spell "ethic cleansing"? our "hordes" were the 100.000-s who did not want to live under war criminal franjo or muslim alija...several hundreds of thousands who were ignored in all this self help to their land as well! like they dont exist...sorry if you think they should have handed over their territory to the first separatist after short negotioations LOL... no this is just you stating something as "Fact" ...his nationalism had no reason or calling for if it was not fueled by your separatism...yugoslavia was the land of slovenians/croats/bosnians/serbs/montenegrans and macedonians with 2 provinces or kosovo and vojvodina... post proof that milosevic started first he already had yugoslavia and you didnt so the burden of proof is on you because you stood to gain and he had "Great serbia" and even bigger than that he had yugoslavia already...so why the hell would he bother with nationalism and get hate from the whole world?? milosevic became important when franjo and alija and clinton made him important...yugoslavia was NOT JUST your land... oh and please explain how exactly would he "take your land"??? dig it up with bulldozers and take it away to serbia? i dont hate anybody...but your hands are covered in blood just like ours...i never said the whole nation are monsters this is just you being out of arguments and putting words in my mouth...i said WW2 corat nazis and government were monsters and this stands true... i agree...its just that you have hoards of your own but youre hesitant to admit it... you assumed i was branding your entire nation...this is a POLITICS forum and you should assume im just talking about the government and the army...yes your politicians and army have a bad nazi rep so when your separatists ask for their private countries it sets off a "red flag" so to speak do you get it now? you did not answer my question...the mother of all questions as far as this conversation is concerned: please explain what you got in return for the 100.000-s of dead (except paying taxes to gov. x instead of government y) ill answer your question (even though you did not answer mine you only asked the same question back): i dont give a crap im no nationalist...a nation/government for me is completely irrelevant and i wont kill anybody over it...i dont give a rats ass about kosovo or who the hell they pay their taxes to...i honestly dont care who you pay your taxes to nothing could be more irrelevant to me... be sure to explain why you think it was justified to quit negotiations and go to war so that franjo could have his own private little country at the expense of 100.000s of people cause you must have a great reason and explanation and im dying to hear it...what was the urgency? was oxygen running out?
How does him being an atheist have any bearing on his actions? Was he killing people in the name of atheism? I really think his religious views are irrelevant.
So basicaly we attacked our own country! Equoling Milosevic with Tudman and Izebegovic is nothing more than defending him. It's just like saying: he was a bad but it wasn't his fault, others were bad too... Keep defending him. That tells loads about you. Since when Tudman is a war criminal? Care to share with us when he was convicted as war criminal? Last time I've checked reality each republic had a right to get independence and it was in Yugoslavian constitution. If you know anything about history you should knew that AVNOJ had only 3 meetings and ZAVNOH was integral part of AVNOJ. And I guess you will understand this: Popis hrvatskih NOP odreda Another facts I am proud of:Croatian Righteous among the Nations Read some history and than we can talk. You are the one who claim that whole nation was a monster. Here, start here: 1st Sisak Partisan Detachment It seems to me that your "history" is somehow diferent than ours. I am still waiting on you to prove how all croats were nazis during WWII. From facts I've posted it does seems that majority of croats didn't liked what croatian nazi criminals were doing. So when Milosevic started to arm serbs in Croatia and they started to taking over out towns and started to attacking our police forces we should've continue with negotiations? Again, you should read some history about how it all started: Croatian War of Independence Log Revolution How can Radical party be product of the war if it was formed before war? How can you negotiate for years if you were already attacked? Please explain. And your claim that a nation got nothing with their own national state is nonsense not worth disscusing. If we look at mankind history there was millions and millions people died for their national states and their freedom altough their air remained the same... You are the one who claimed that we were monsters. Will you now claim that you didn't claimed that? And who was asking for their own private country? Care to share with us some sources or is it just one of your "silly" claims you can't back up with sources? That's why I've asked you was Tudman nazi during WWII and you dodged that question. Check reality again: Tudman Doesn't sound like a nazi to me at all. Care to quote me where did I called your nation monsters? I would love to see that quote. And when did you made peace with monsters? Is that a joke? Care to share with us how exactly you made peace with monsters after WWII if you claim that you didn't called my entire nation monsters. I would love to hear that explanation too! Again, care to share with us how Tudman and Izetbegovic wanted their own private countries for themselfs? I would love to see some sources which can prove that silly claim! And ,again, you are confirming real cause of war: Milosevic wanted to get all serbs in one country meaning that he wanted to get as much of our land as he can get. It's not first time that you are saying it thou. First of all I am not your "bro". Second, please do share with us all maps from Croatia and Bosnia and let's than disscuss "ethnic cleansing". I would love to do this! And you call yourself pacifist?!? LOL Your excuses for war crimes commited by your hordes doesn't sound too pacifics huh? Mass rape and psychological oppression Yeah our hordes raped more than 20,000 womans and girls but you started it with your nationalism and separatism... Are you aware that your excuses for those criminals sounds kinda disgusting? But yeah, you don't defend Milosevic at all! Your question sounds like: why would Hitler start a war and get hate from the whole world! Sorry, check ex-yu constitution and check what it says about how republics can get their independnce and you will find your answers why he did what he did. So Milosevic didn't play any role before Tudman and Izetbegovic got to power?!? Is this a joke? By creating so called Krajina and integrating it into some kind of new Yugoslavia. Don't tell me, you never heard of something like that huh? So this was not your post: As I can read it there's no mention of "corat nazis and government". Can you show me where did you said that? How about this post: You didn't posted that too? And again I don't see anything about "corat nazis and government". Can you show me where did you said that in this post? I will never agree with you on that one for sure. Yes, we did have war criminals but it was more in individual form. We never did anything like your hordes did in Srebrenica. Other than war crimes in Gospic I don't recall any else ,let's say, organised war crimes from my side. If we had hordes (and I am talking about military and paramilitary forces) you would post list of massacres just like I've did. So you didn't posted this: And our first president have nazi rep because he fought against nazis huh? What can I say on that one other than: are you aware that you sound a bit silly? And ,again, you keep repeating how Tudman wanted his own private country but somehow you never posts any source to back up that claim. Ever heard of Joseph Goebbels? You sound just like him with parroting that silly claim. Well, when you twist facts like you doing it all the time there's no need to answer your silly questions. Claiming that we got our independence because some man wanted his own private country is simply insult for all those people who gave their life for our freedom. You think if you keep claiming that we killed 100,000s of people to get private country for one single man it will somehow become a hard cold fact. Sorry to burst your bubble: it won't. It sounds too damn retarded for anyone to believe in it. Keep making up things, maybe there's enough naive kids who would believe in fairy tales you post all the time. You can fool 1000s of people but you can't fool whole damn world and world said what they think about Milosevic, his regime on one side and Tudman,Izetbegovic, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo on other side. Don't tell me: it was all US conspiracy to put you down, right? Again, check the facts who started the war and than get back to me. It's not hard to find those facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence Never the less I don't expect facts from a guy who claims to be pacifist and on the other hand he keeps defending someone like Milosevic was and he calls entire nation monsters. You simply doesn't make sense. Period.
How do you know this Damian? How is this different than atheists also claiming the same thing about a tyrant or world leader that claims to be from any religion? You dont have to kill anyone in the name of religion, a persons actions speak for his beliefs dont they? You are one of the few that is starting to get my point. My point is blindly labeling is put of pure ignorance. Its amazing the amount of religious labeling done by atheists against people of all religions. If you dont believe me just do a search on google.
pong, The difference is when atheists blame a persons religious views for their actions their actions are a direct result of their religion. You don't seem to have even the slightest grasp of cause and effect and how it works. It's no good to just point out one view held by someone and claim It to be responsible for their actions. Was the crusades directly the result of religion? Yes Are suicide bombings directly the result of religion? Yes Was the sectarian violence in Ireland directly the result of religion? Yes Was the murder of Theo van Gogh directly the result of religion? Yes These actions are directly the result of a held belief.. Following so far? Good. Now, Here are some beliefs held by people which did in no way CAUSE their actions. Was Charles manson's favorite colour responsible for his actions? No. Was Hitlers catholicism responsible for his attempted annihilation of an entire race? No. Was Milosevic's atheism responsible for his crimes? No. Cause and effect is very simple. You can't just find a correlation and assume they effects each other. Now i suspect you will continue with this charade trying to convince people that you weren;t actually making a ridiculous point, You were trying to highlight how other people make ridiculous points.... In which case, Give examples of the ridiculous points they are making or concede that it's a strawman. Show me where an atheist has claimed someones religious beliefs were responsible for their crimes when they actually weren't.
uhmmm....you do realize that wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime and that linking to wikipedia to try to prove something makes "facts" worthless, if they are not linked by a credible source
The difference is that he wasn't killing people in the name of atheism. While his personal actions may reflect his beliefs, he wasn't using "atheism" as his justification for his actions. Honestly though, regardless of the label applied to it, murder is murder. And as a species, we like to kill things. Religion just happens to be a convenient way to justify actions that would normally seem abhorrent - because if you have the backing of GOD you can't be wrong. Right?
Ummmm you do realize that if someone post source claiming something if you want to dispute what have been posted you post your own source so feel free to do so. Claiming that something coming from wikipedia are worthless per se is nonsense until you prove it is worthless indeed.
Stox you have no proof at all for Milosevic's killing on being part of his religious beliefs or not. People dont have to kill in the name of atheism to represent atheism. In atheism, you make your own laws and anything goes. Whos to say what is good and what is bad? It all becomes a point of view when it can be rationalized by human beings. Good and bad isnt chosen randomly(get it random chaotic chance). Just maybe there are some universal laws of good and bad here and all your points that you brought up could have alot to do with politics as much as religion. Just as i said jesus christ would never approve of killing, other then defending your home or if you have no choice in a war. You keep trying to twist things so they could come out in your nicely atheistic view but teh real world is a bit more complicated. IN most wars and killings there is usually politics and evil and a twisting of beliefs. Again mans laws. When someone kills in the name of god they kill according their own laws. Hmmm own laws? Isnt that what atheists believe in? Damian, if you truely believe in god, you can never kill unconsciensly with no remorse(even if someone has a weapon to my head). This is why i am against that lie of a war in iraq. Most atheists never understand most religions in the first place and make a sweeping generalization about them. Ok guys im gonna BLINK INTO NOTHINGNESS YET AGAIN. No wonder why i like sand so much lol. For Stoxs first assignment i want him to show me once in the new testament where jesus said its ok to commit murders of any kind. I dont care if someone kills in the name of religion. I wanna see it in the new testament.
We do have proof because we know why he done his killing. We know his political motivation and at no point was his disbelief in god the cause. I mean, How could it be? How can a belief that is essentially nothing cause anything. Nobody represents atheism. it's as impossible for someone to represent atheism as it would be for someone to represent "people who like the colour blue" or "people who don't collect stamps". People inherently have the ability to know what is good and bad based on the ever shifting zeitgeist. People don't need god to know what is right or wrong. Your argument is essentially an admission that without religion you would be killing children, raping women and enslaving men... Would you do that without religion? If not, People then don't need religion to know right from wrong. By the way, Don't quote me if you have no intention of addressing what you have quoted.
I agree, but I do think it is more than zeitgeist that causes that awful sinking feeling in my stomach when I have done something wrong, especially when I think back to childhood, when I was much less clear about the social norms. I do not think religion is necessary to know right from wrong, but it can be a helpful tool in teaching, even if student and teacher do not believe in it as fact. Parables are handy.