do you think soldiers are heroes or the losers ?

I will call once again, your usual methods notwithstanding. Are only some vets to be "defended and cared for?"

When are you leaving?

When are you heading to jail, or facing trial as a war criminal?

Nice try, both to paint yourself as a "culture hero" and to paint those of us with a big problem with this war with one, collectivist brush. Many of us believe this war is wrong. We want it to stop. And we want the service people to come home, before one more is lost, and before one more Iraqi is killed - by whomever. I will not spit on the returning troops anymore than I would have spit on the vets coming home from Vietnam. You will, and that's not fine with me. But you have the right.

 

LOL. Yep, you really nailed it home, Atv. Slam dunk. American servicepeople LEAP to service 'cuz the paycheck is just crazy.

 

And what are you doing about it?

And what are you doing about it?

Right, another thing you won't do. Really motivated. Do nothing, say nothing. Revel in the military history of your ancestors. Who cares if they killed innocents, just keep glorifying the Imperial legions.

As far as spitting on the troops, I have no use for that. But if one goes, and they know it is wrong, and that killing and abusing civilians will be their job, then they're a criminal by all standards our society applies to law. Following orders, or wearing the flag on their arm is not a shield against moral accountability.

 

Scurrying under evasion falls flat, as usual.

I will call once again, your usual methods notwithstanding. Are only some vets to be "defended and cared for?"

When are you leaving?

When are you heading to jail, or facing trial as a war criminal?

 

Yes you are. You turn thread after thread around to evade and avoid. Meanwhile, you're morally bankrupt on this topic, and demanding answers from me? Yeah, right!

Your veteran comment is totally unrelated. You're reaching.

You're playing a moral equivalence game with the native American Indians. I wasn't alive yet. And I don't celebrate their murders the way you celebrate your family members who participated in an illegal Vietnamese war, and probably committed murder of civilians.

You're confusing things irrelevant, before my life, and taken by force as some form of guilt on my part.

I'm not guilty. I'm working to make a change. Even though my government takes taxes under the threat of kidnapping and jail rape, I still take what I have left and channel it into doing what is right.

I will ask again.

What are you doing to stop the war in Iraq?

 

Do you know the story behind the soldier with the flag? I'm guessing some crazy protesters left the flag at what appears to be a recruiting office, given that there is a professionally printed banner advertisement in the front window.

 

We think it's better to pay our soldiers rather than start wars, force young boys to join, and then get our asses kicked.

 

Tough talk. Chickenhawk much?

 

how bad is this..??

Vietnam veterans interview >

 

according to wikipedia, soldiers/contractors in Iraq gets around $100k a/y

http://wikitravel.org/en/Iraq#Work

 

Just trying to counter ATV's tough talk. He bashes the American Army every chance he gets, saying that they bombed his poor 3rd world army that consisted of young boys that were forced to join, then he continues bashing us using the fact that our army is a paid army. Our army is a paid army so we don't have to force kids to fight. How come the people that were murdered by the unpaid army of his country doesn't seem to bother you?

 

i would think pipl who goes to war for money are less moroneous than the "ideology driven"/free ones

 

Because I'm not interested in playing the game of "my army is better at killing then your army".

I am against all murder. Unequivocally. I have made that very clear many times.

 

Yeah but the only time you really seem outraged about soldiers killing people is when it is US soldiers. I've never seen you start a thread about the Jewish Holocaust, or any of the atrocities committed by Asian or European soldiers over the years, but I have seen you start threads on Hiroshima and other events that could be used to paint the US in a bad light. Why do you only concentrate on (perceived or real) atrocities by the US?

That's not the game I'm playing. There are a lot of people in this forum who's whole lives seem to revolve around harping on everything bad(or just making it up) about the US that they can find. If all you ever hear is one side of a story, or if one party(the US) is constantly and almost exclusively the one being bashed, then it's just propaganda, plain and simple, whether it's intended to be or not.

 

Did they start another Jewish holocaust?

Right now, we have a virtual monopoly on evil and war. So we're going to get the flack. Believe me, if the Soviets were still around, I would have a lot of their actions to bitch about. But the toughest competitors in the arena are Britain, which swings from our nuts, and China, which doesn't even have the moxie to take back Taiwan.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, is it not?

You call it propaganda. I call it the truth. The propaganda is the lies Bush fed everyone to go to war in Iraq. Learn to discriminate between truth and fiction, because truth is never propaganda.

 

You created a thread with photos from Hiroshima out of the blue. You don't seem to abide by the limits of recent history when it comes to the US. Is that a bit of a double standard?

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=propaganda



I don't have a problem with people who have problems with our policies. I really don't. In fact if the situation was reversed and everybody in this forum was pro-war, pro-US, no matter what we did, I'd probably argue against them just to balance things. This isn't Star Wars where good and evil are so easily distinguished from one another. There are legitimate arguments on both sides, but I almost only ever see ONE side in this forum.

 

Are you arguing that a sample size of 1 is adequate to produce a pattern?

Sounds like communication to me.

We both know what propaganda is.

Many were pro-war in this forum until early this year. Then all of the neocons and chickenhawks left when it became obvious that their deranged racism and hatred was totally without merit and events were turning in a direction that would not put them in good stead.

There are no legitimate arguments for aggressive violence against civilians. The entire pro-war case rests upon the 9/11 attacks and a concern about terrorism. If we produce terrorism and justify it, then our own argument is moot. And that is what we do today. We are the worlds #1 aggressor, #1 empire, #1 invader, #1 bomber, #1 kidnapper, #1 torturer, and #1 murderer.

You don't like it? Get off your ass and do something about it, or stop giving me crap for being on a soapbox. Because I will do what I can to (1) galvanize my fellow man and (2) make sure everyone knows the "other side" of the story, the one you don't get on the news when they report 400 insurgents dead on Fox, but don't mention 40 women and children being burnt to death. Or that Karl Rove has literally fled the country rather than appear in front of Congress, another story the domestic MSM conveniently will not cover.

Is it depressing that the country is in the shitter? Absolutely. When the going gets tough, the tough gets going. You can keep trying to play the middle, and see "both sides" of callous murder against foreign civilians while we stuff our faces and watch Idol, or you can pick a side, and get involved.

Or you can put me on ignore for a change.

Or you can post something positive. Maybe post when we kill some insurgents or terists or sumthin.

 

/Spits coffee all over keyboard and monitor


You're making sure everyone knows the "other side"? Are you serious? You're like an unbiased online reporter are you?

I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I know what is right and wrong all the time. But I'm smart enough to know demagogue like behavior when I see it.

Why, just because I don't agree with you like 85% of the time? People with extreme views like you have 99% of the rest of the world on their virtual ignore list; why would a reasonable person want to ignore the views of others?

 

Yeah. Like a Paul Revere MFer.

But I'm biased. Definitely biased. You won't get any pro-war rhetoric or partisan politics out of me.

I don't think you're that smart. You're problem isn't a lack of arrogance, it's a lack of conviction. At least someone like GTech, as wrong headed and self-destructive as his posts were, had faith and purpose when he posted. You engage arguments you have no interest in winning, losing or learning from.

So, peace is extreme. Sound money and honest government is extreme. Non-violence is extreme. Following the law is extreme. Participating in the process is extreme.

Brilliant Orwellian doublethink. Just beautiful. They fit perfect with war is terror and liberty is security.

Lemme guess, as an Obama supporter, you probably believe privacy and the Constitution are extreme too?

 

After the Gulf war and the fall of the Soviet Union the US cut 6 Divisions from the 18 active divisions. During the Clinton years another 2 Divisions were cut so there were only ten divisions left. A lot of NCOs with less than 17 years couldn't find slots. I knew a guy that graduated out of ROTC in the time period. He had 4 years prior service in the army and was unable to find a slot either active or reserves.