many Americans are the worst with money...this is a crisis in the US

Ah... maybe a little calm would be good here.

Two Pina Colada's for everyone?

TGIF GUYS!!!

north, you can't really argue with a prognostication. There's no way to tell who's right about the future until the future is the present.

Which reminds me of this exchange...

Dark Helmet: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the movie?
Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now.
Dark Helmet: What happened to then?
Colonel Sandurz: We passed then.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now. We're at now, now.
Dark Helmet: Go back to then!
Colonel Sandurz: When?
Dark Helmet: Now.
Colonel Sandurz: Now?
Dark Helmet: Now!
Colonel Sandurz: I can't.
Dark Helmet: Why?
Colonel Sandurz: We missed it.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now.
Dark Helmet: When will then be now?
Colonel Sandurz: Soon.​

I've talked with a lot of people who believe that an Obama Presidency (which is very likely to happen) will be the end of our nation as we know it. You don't agree. Know one really knows yet. It's odd to attack Mia for arguing a point which no one can prove yet.

 

Will, C'MON, man. You want to seriously tell me you think there is even the most miniscule chance Obama is in essence Hitler, and we will shortly have an America that is essentially another Nazi Germany?

I don't think you really think that. I'm pretty sure you think it will be a socialist quagmire, with a host of interventions into the market, and so forth, and I know Obama and his platform isn't your cup of tea

But I don't for a second believe you harbor any real thoughts that America, 2008-2012, will be Germany, 1933-1945. Do you?

On the other hand, given his vigorous affirmations of his statements, I can only conclude Mia does believe this. And I find such a viewpoint moronic, and disgusting, for the many reasons I've already said. Actually, that we're even having this discussion seems comically ludicrous, to me - and it would be, if it weren't for the fact such a ridiculous piece of smear/crap was actually being promulgated without tongue firmly inserted in cheek.

 

Would it make you feel better if we said "Stalin" instead?

I'd have to go for Germany 1933-1937. That seems like a decent analogy.

1939+ is too far of a stretch -- for now. But, as we have all seen in the War on Drugs, the disintegration of freedom is a very slippery slope.

Sorry man. I know this isn't what you want to hear. It's not just me or Mia either. I'm hearing this from a large number of people I know personally. None of us want to be plunged head first into a government-controlled state economy where preference is given based upon race and political loyalty and where the command decisions of "politically correct" bureaucrats are backed up by the force of law and arms -- against the backdrop of a recently disarmed populace.

But that's tomorrow. Today is Friday; we should eat, drink, and be merry.

 

I don't know, Will. I guess I can only say I'm 48, Nazi Germany was something of my close study for decades, and this is utterly ridiculous from my understanding of our country, and of Germany - it seems a nadir in discussion to make any kind of comparison to Hitler's Germany with Obama's presidency; and after accusing the man of being a virtual alien species over the last several months, and all of it failing, this takes the cake.

If you, or anyone would really make this argument, I'd say you should be starting with the relative social structures in place - we are simply not the corporatist society that Hitler's regime was. (Indeed, we are nothing like the interwar fascist regimes in makeup). At its most basic, the ability to implement a totalitarian political-economic system depends on such corporatist structure - and I'm not talking Big Business, and Big Labor, as it's described in the U.S., but as it existed in Hitler's Germany and as it helped him "grab" blocks of power in discrete "chunks."

And it goes from there. This is simply a stupid argument, in my opinion, and, I'm also sorry to say, I'm surprised to see you joining Mia in making it.

 

Wow:

Best thing I've seen here, is an effort to reflect on the TGIF nature of today. Second best thing I've seen here recently is the admission that the suggestions are simply those of one trying to predict the future.

The truism is that nobody knows.

Still, the vehemence of a political attack and the size of the threat suggested made is more often than not directly proportional to the relative radical thinking of the threat maker.

Those on the farthest right or left tend to make the most egregious comments and connect them to whomever they oppose.

It denigrates American political discourse and the ability to make good decisions. All the decisions get wrapped up in the middle of amazingly distorted political comments from one extreme or the other, more intent on attacking the other political way of thinking than focusing on what may work or not work.

It has been typical for decades for those on the defense oriented right to label EVERY democrat as weak....and warn of disaster. EVERY democrat.

Last I checked we weren't being ruled by Russia, China, or Osama bin Laden.

Its typical of the furthest left to assign EVERY republican to the most heinous crimes of wanting to enslave every American, deprive us of freedoms, and wants all our money to go to the monied class.

(the far right blames Democrats for that also).

Its too bad the extremes don't come down with severe cases of laryngitis that would lower their voices and similarly afflict their ability to post nonsense on the web.

But the best thing I've seen is .....TGIF

 

I think you're on to something here, but I worry that it's just "too big" for any of us to tackle. This needs a poli-sci grad student with lots of free time.

It's not really Obama and Hitler, what you're really leading into is a roadmap by which any industrialized society can create a resonant feedback loop for statist power. Roosevelt and Showa should also be used to provide potentially useful data points.

I do not agree that the ability to implement a totalitarian political-economic system depends on any specific corporatist structure. I would argue that a populist government can, in time, force both corporations and people into the feedback loop. The state wields both the carrot and the ultimate stick.

Ughh... don't get me started on a new project. I'm such a slacker, I haven't even registered a domain to critique Blueprint for Change.

 

Well, a brief riposte - and to clarify in case it wasn't known - when I say corporatist, I am literally talking social structure, not a system where corporations or large business exist on one side, and a mass populace on the other. I am talking about a system where the entire society is strongly aligned by cohesive, well-defined aggregates, and such a structure makes it easier to "grab" power blocs, and align groups to totalitarian goals. In history, the fascist societies existed as such a structure, and I would say, looking at the Middle East, Khomeini's revolution made use of such a coalition-building strategy as well. But this is another thread.***

The statist thing - well, Will, as a libertarian you will hold views as to what constitutes "statism" that differ from mine, and we will also differ on whether such a statement as "good" and "government" can exist in a logical universe.

I haven't been a "poli-sci grad student" for quite some time, actually. I'm actually currently laid up with a disc blowout at L1-L2, and L2-L3. So, between the vicodins, I can indulge my other addiction, DPP&R/wasteoftimeforallofus.

***(I wouldn't include "Showa" as much as his "hotheads" - Tojo and the gang.)

 

Jah, I am somewhat familiar with the model, I just don't believe that it is a necessary prerequisite.

Civilization is good. Government is necessary to protect civilization.

I am not opposed to government, in it's rightful place.

Three? What the heck did you do, try to pick up an entire cow by yourself?

I am here drinking a 2006 Pavilion Cabernet Sauvignon. WineSpectator labeled it as "drink now", so I am obliging them.

This would go exceptionally well with some vicodin.

I was a poli-sci student at one time. I was kicked out of the poli-sci program for stating that we had no actual proof that the Soviet missiles in Cuba were actually shipped back to the Soviet Union -- we had only photos of boxes being shipped back. My department head had specifically stated that she wanted open class discussion, but that was just a bit too open for her politically correct tastes.

That was probably the best thing to ever happen to me.

I've already displayed, once, a complete lack of knowledge regarding Japanese imperial politics. I'll avoid doing that again.

Alternatively, this could also lead into an interesting study comparing and contrasting the Japanese zaibatsu model with the German corporatist model...

 

Personally I've known people making 150k a year in real estate or some sort of sales that lost their job etc. They managed to 'survive' without going to food banks. One reason is because they owned an emergency food source kit and a garden. Lots of people don't have room to grow or save such things. Also I feel it may be different in other countries because in other countries food sources etc are different.
In america you have to pay for everything water, food, light, living etc.
If you have kids and can't provide enough for them the state will take them to a foster home where they will be cared for properly.
These people often hope that they can keep their house and find a job within 6 months. So they live like they regularly do and their money deteriorates faster than paper in a fire.

I'm american and I've always been taught to save at least 3 months salary for emergency situations. So if I get fired I can live comfortably for 3 months. It takes the average person 3 months to find a job of some sort.

America is also great for the fact we offer general assistance and housing assistance. For the unfortunate people out there the government will assist you in finding a job and pay you for a short while. It's not a lot but food banks help. It also makes up for our lack of a better health program.

Food banks are also a great thing for large companies like Ralphs, it's a tax write off.

 

I absolutely love that movie btw. Fooooooled you!!!!

That conversation pretty much sums up how I feel about most of the arguements that go on here.....

And that's where I think some of our problems begin. Most Americans DON'T save any money for an emergency. They live paycheck to paycheck buying TVs, games, and way too expensive clothes instead of saving some of it.

I was out of a job for a time with a mortgage to pay by myself. To make end meet, I didn't buy anything extra and worked with a family friend hooking up air conditioners (swamp coolers), painting, landscaping, etc. in 110 degree heat so I could pay the mortgage so I didn't have to dip into my savings.

 

dude, walk around the south for a minute and find a ton of people who think whites are superior race, and calling people niggers is totally acceptable

so where will obama set up his gulags? and who will be the first to be put in it?

 

What most people do not understand is why Americans do not save any longer. Until we begin to understand our problems, we can't seriously try to fix them.

 

and this is why they should be homeless for awhile and eat out of dumpsters, so they will learn a lesson

 

Won't happen. The welfare state will confiscate your wealth through taxes or inflation to support them and subsidize the risk of their bad mistakes.w

Welcome to a world without accountability.

 

Don't know the wine, Will...big pinot guy myself. I tried to piggyback a few glasses on an earlier vicodin - once. Man, it has come screaming home that I'm not 27 anymore. I'm a pretty big guy, and the Vicodin be strong, and the hangover be evil....

At least you had the honor to be kicked out. I left, to pursue the life of an itinerant actor in L.A., which was the right choice, after the fact. I am interested in all of this, but the life - bleccch. The hot air here, myself included, taken to egregious, toxic limits inside academia. Not for me.

Yep, the zaibatsu model is interesting, and agree that it has a direct parallel to interwar Germany's corporatism (and Hitler's co-optation of heavy industry). How these morphed into the postwar keiretsu, and historically embedded institutions like MITI, are something I also find interesting.

One thing that stands out to me as an interesting contrast between the two countries is the rise and ascendancy of the "hothead" army faction in Japan - "the Imperial Way" - how much autonomy and power it had, when compared to Germany, with its power resting in the political and political/military arm of the NASDAP.

Also, few really talk about the relative social mobility (and destruction of the feudal order, and its privileges) in both countries, with both Hitlerian Germany, and Tojo Japan, introducing a young, revolutionary movement, that destroyed much of the moribund class structures of Imperial Germany or Japan. Anyway, enough blabber...yep, interesting stuff.

 

Dude, you are soooo... totally becoming a Republican.

PM me your snail mail address. I'll send you an American Flag, an NRA Membership Card, a six-pack of domestic beer, and a copy of Conscience of a Conservative.

 

If it's your kind of neoconservative Republican, then you should send him a bible, PNAC membership application and a coupon for a lobotomy. Those are the essentials. The beer and flag are just propaganda tools.

 

I don't know if you ever seen people living on welfare but they don't really hook you up, what can get like $500-$800 for a few months before they kick you off

as much is its scary the state of the economy its fun watching all the real estate "professionals" eat a shit sandwich

 

Your accusations concerning my supposed Christianity are hilarious.

Please, come up with more entertaining lies.

Jesus was a hippie, and everyone knows how I feel about hippies.

 

I agree with the statement above. There is no such thing as accountability anymore. But I blame some of it on education as well. I think I was lucky that my mom was a mortgage loan officer and always told me "if you have good credit, you can do anything". She saw the effects of people coming in with no savings and HORRIBLE credit trying to buy a house and she would always remind me that, if I wanted nice things of my own one day, I would have to work hard, save, and pay my bills on time. Be responsible! What a friggin' concept!

But, that was back in the day where you wouldn't get a loan, of any kind, if people knew you wouldn't/couldn't pay it back. Times have changed where these same people are being thrown credit cards, cars, and houses....

And it's good to hear from you again guerilla. I was beginning to think you put me on ignore too!