Anti-Americanism is at record levels thanks to US policies such as the war in Iraq, a

Yeah I know it's only murder when Americans do it. What solution would you have proposed after all the peace talks failed to keep serbs and albanians from murdering each other? Would you have offered them some candy or something while it turned into full blown genocide and world war? Would that be the moral high ground?
You take every opportunity to equate US military force with Hitler but when an obvious parallel is staring you in the eyes, as with the murdering of innocent albanians you take a pass because it would be applied to non-US forces.

Why aren't you and ATV critical of the murderers that prompted the NATO bombing in the first place?

 

That's horsecrap and you know it. It's murder when anyone does it. But if you want to pretend you have a moral duty or imperative to intervene against evil, then it's totally undermined by perpetuating evil yourself.

Why is it my place to propose a solution? We pick and choose which conflicts we involve ourselves in. Genocide in Africa, and we stand silent. Ethnic conflict in Europe, and we start bombing cities.

Yes, because every conflict escalates into a world war and genocide. Every conflict has a Hitler, whether it's the original, or the Ayatollah Khomeini, or Saddam, or Ahmadinejad, or Chavez, or Castro.

Pre-emptive wars of aggression are war crimes. There is no moral justification for picking a side in a conflict, and bombing civilians on the other.

You're trying to play the moral equivalence game. Doesn't work on me. I am anti-war, and pro-peace. That means that I hate all war, I don't use violence as justification to beget more violence.

You probably don't even understand the comparisons with Hitler. Preemptive war of aggression was his original crime (Poland).

Who says we are not?

But that said, isn't the statement "prompted bombing" utterly ridiculous on it's own? Under what conditions is bombing civilian targets acceptable?

Have you read my definition of terrorism? Now tell me, is knowingly bombing civilians terrorism or not?

 

African conflicts don't have the history of throwing the world into war that European conflicts do, especially THAT part of Europe.

You're the one that brought up Hitler in another thread to try to show how that all intervention is evil.

Yet I've never seen you apply such an analogy to someone like saddam, which actually would have been a more obvious analogy since he did invade one of his neighbors as Hitler did.

There's a huge justification if early action which causes some death will prevent a protracted war that will kill many.

You're pro-Utopia and anti-reality.

Cours not. How can I be expekted to undurstand stuff as well as a shmart purson like u?

Civilians weren't being targeted as they were by the serbs and albanians. Civilians may have been killed accidentally by bombing but their deaths likely prevented more thousands if not 10s or 100s of thousands of deaths.

 

I see. So some deaths mean more than others. How very racially distinctive of you.

Meaningless to me. Source it or drop it.

Saddam didn't fabricate a reason to invade Kuwait like Hitler did. Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq. Saddam felt the need to respond.

The absence of proof is not proof. Please don't waste your and my valuable time with logical fallacies.

I've been critical of Saddam, it's just hard to keep blaming him for the continued US presence in Iraq, years after he has been executed, not to mention removed from power.

So it's ok if I kill you and everyone you love to stop a war? You're ok with that? What about if I bomb a school of kids, to convince their parents not to push their government to mobilize it's army. Is that justified?

Under your (sic) moral code, where do you draw the line on when and how much preemptive killing is justified?

Just wondering, because it sounds to me that you think you have the right to kill innocent people if you think it will scare someone from attacking you. If that is true, do you have the guts to kill women and children yourself?

Ad Hominems. Clear sign you are losing the argument.

I'm pro compassion and honesty. If you call being anti-war an pro peace "anti-reality" then may God help us.

More Ad Homs. It's no surprise really. I shouldn't have taken you off my ignore list. You're not capable of making an argument and defending it to a conclusion without acting childish in an attempt to wiggle out of debate.

This is incorrect. Clinton gave the authorization to bomb hospitals and schools.

But that aside, are you saying that if I burn a house down and a family inside burns to death, I'm not guilty of murder, just arson?

When you drop bombs in cities, civilian casualties are a predictable outcome.

Thus, dropping bombs in cities, is premeditated murder if civilians are killed.

That is, unless you truly believe that dropping bombs in cities are unlikely to kill civilians. Is that your position?

 

Haha. And you have the gaul to claim ad hominem later in this post. It has nothing to do with race and everything about trying to measure the effects that a particular conflict could have on the world and responding accordingly as to try to curb world war. If we just wanted to fly around the world bombing innocent civilians because it gave us a hard on we would be in Africa and every other place where people murder each other.

There's a link there Sherlock.

Well I thought maybe Saddam was the bad guy in that conflict and it seems most of the world agreed and much of the world helped fund the war and actually helped fight against him. But if you're saying he was justified I guess that trumps all. You're the wise all knowing beacon of enlightenment after all.

The inability to prove absence of proof is proof of proof's absence.

If you saved 50,000 other kids? Maybe. What is better to sit and do nothing while casualties mount, economies crumble and many more suffer as a result, just so you can claim the moral high ground? That my friend is not only a logical fallacy as you like to say, but a moral fallacy.

I don't think the word preemptive is suitable for a conversation on Kosovo since they were already killing each other. We intervened to try to keep a lid on it so it didn't spread and cause much more death and misery.

Do you have the guts to sit back and allow world wars to begin just so you can claim moral superiority?

Getrealla, you live in a world where everybody could get along, not kill each other and ride purple unicorns if just wasn't for the pesky US that caused conflict and death everywhere. Unfortunately that's not the world that those of us who cherish realism live in. The world is often a dangerous place full of war and conflict and people that want to kill each other. And sometimes getting into the fight actually can actually lessen the suffering.

It was in response to you implying your inherent intellectual and moral superiority again. To you it is a foregone conclusion that the way you see things is the only moral and just way, but I don't believe it's the case.

Do you think killing children and sick people gave him the jollies?
Show me where Clinton gave the orders and I'll show you a reasonable military target.

My position is that it is sometimes necessary to take a position, even if it means that some civilians will die, if it prevents greater bloodshed, especially a potential world war.

 

no first you gave support to separatist groups in my country and you gave them weapons...yes we lived in peace i know and you dont...we live in peace still now and will unite again in the EU...

lies lies lies...how convenient is it for you to pretend that your support for separatists and your weapons had no role in this

sure we were murdering each other just out of the blue ...

let me tell you something about milosevic: nobody gave a crap about him until the USA and its NATO puppet cemented him in power by giving support and WEAPONS to no name separatists in my country...we actually had a strong democratic opposition that was pro europe pro america but then the bombs started to fall on us and the democrats were silenced & milosevic was untouchable...thanks!

so if some separatist group in the USA wants its own country why dont you do the same? give them weapons and support?...no? oh right heres where the famous american double standard kicks in ...

 

You lived in peace? So the Bosnian war never happened either? What about the massacre of 8,000 Bosniaks ? Maybe if the US had armed them they wouldn't have been slaughtered?

 

first i never said the bosnian war never happened this is you putting words in my mouth...

then you have to get a time line of events str8 what happened when...to claim we murdered 8000 "bosnians" after living complete peace with them for 100-s of years is complete nonsense...the trouble started when the US government gave support to separatist groups in our country and then weapons...put fuel on the fire and you get a civil war...

you can dance around it all you want serbs/croats/bosnians live in peace just like they did before...if you believe the bullshit they spoon fed you about my country then you probably believe theres WMD in iraq or that bill clinton did not have sex with that woman...

oh heres a neat little experiment...screw what i tell you you one can write anything and words are cheap...i dare you to walk with an american flag through the capital of bosnia and see how much love you get

hell if you saved them from us savage serbs who wanted to kill them for no reason at all then you will get lots of applause and love right? but if what i say is true then you wont have the best of times

 

And with Iran next on U.S. target list, ratings will drop further

 

Hatred is not proof of a reasonable stance. Hate is a primitive emotion which lacks reason as you have shown with your post and as your countrymen exhibited when they murdered thousands of innocents. My time would be better spent debating my cat.

 

"I'm all for America--f*** the government."
--Marshall Mathers

 

Double standards, What about Chechnya and Abhaziya, communist China, North Korea. etc., etc.? Silent.

You are there, when you can handle it and its for your benefit. Im 100% sure that so called Kosovo, will do whatever you ask them, first of all planting a military base there, thats the american goals in THAT part of Europe

 

Really? You wouldn't think that maybe Czechoslovakia might have been his original crime. Or, y'know, all the Germans that were murdered and imprisoned before the war. But you're right; murdering some people is ok, it's just the ones that you're comfortable with we're not allowed to murder.[/trolling because you have no opinion aside from "RON PAUL lololololol"]

Ok, now I'm finished trolling.

 

What about them?

And can you imagine if we had a situation like Chechnya with one of our states? How awful and horrible would our oppressive treatment of those people be according to the ones who already hate us?
The truth is, it's really a good time to be Russian. You guys can get away with anything right now because all the scrutiny is focused on the one who is believed to have disproportionate power, the US. I say bring the USSR back. At least then people were better able to see things in perspective.
Hell, bring back any of the other superpowers, especially the recent ones and contrast how they used their power against how the US uses theirs. I think we would come out favorably in any of those comparisons.

Exactly. If we can't handle it then it's stupid to try. And if it's not in our benefit then it's also stupid to try. You don't get to be a superpower by doing a lot of things you can't handle that aren't to your benefit.
We could handle the Kosovo situation and it was probably also in the world's best interest that we did. At least the Albanians(mostly Muslim I might add) think so, who didn't stand a chance if we hadn't intervened.

 

Other countries hated US before before bush to. I always hear complaints about Americans. Why does everyone think were all bad? You can't just pin it on the Gov. Even though it is the Govs fault. People will still blame any American. The stupid thing is every American is made up of people from all over the globe. I think people need to grow up and pin it on "Bush" Or the "Gov". Were people just like you! Most of us our from your country. We are all different colors, we speak different languages from all over the world. We bleed the same color as you(I hope so). You'll find bad people anywhere in the world. But know this there are good people out there to.

 

Ya know, we as Americans will exploit you for our benefit. Especially if you are willing. We do it to each other all the time. The trick is, that everyone else around the world does it too. We as Americans will do whatever is in our best interests, don't you want your country to do the same? Think about that the next time someone starts talking about why we stick our noses in some places and not others.
The problem really lies in the fact that many times what is in the best interest of not only Americans but of everyone involved gets stomped all over by a minority faction in US government. Hopefully as Americans we will fix this problem, in the meantime I apologize for nothing my government does, and promise to do my part in not fucking up the world personally. This philosophy is one of the reasons I can see so many Americans saying such different things than what I believe on these forums and not hate any of them or feel they are Un-American, I realize we just differ in what is best for America.
That is the type of democratic spirit I wish everyone could appreciate. And as far as Serbia Boznia and Herzegovina I truly feel HORROR at what has taken place there, but the history of the US has been no less laden with blood and it is ultimately up to the people there to care for their land, and I have faith you will.

 

i dont hate anybody this is just you being out of arguments and making it obvious...i said (as you already know all to well) "see how much love you get" ...hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i wonder why they dont love you???? dammit i wish i had more brains than your cat

note that love is not a primitive emotion and it holds tons of reason so you still have to wonder why they (and pretty much the whole world) does not love you??

 

words are cheap...anybody can write anything and the ones with the biggest guns and media get to write "history"

when in doubt screw all assumptions...take out the american flag and walk with it through kosovo to see how much love you will get...

 

Its one in the same... Hell, this is about the only place on the planet that Marshall is able to do what he does.

I've always been a big MnM fan. The line "they tried to shut me down on MTV", always kinda struck a nerve with me. "they" was MTV, not "the gov-a-ment".

MTV, more specifically cable networks are not governed by the FCC in the US. That said, if MTV wanted, they could show Jessica Simpson giving a BJ in a MnM video.

MTV just choses to censor things, when they actually play music that is.

You have more of a chance of seeing something really raunchy on a public Network, like ABC, CBS, NBS, etc...

If anything, the only threat to Marshall or any musical artist in the US came from Gore's wife Tipper, a democrat.

The really beauty of America is that even those that hate it, berate it, attack it, and accuse it of not being free, have more freedoms to do so than anywhere else on earth.

Its an interesting irony.

 

It's not an irony. It's how it stays free. The minute people stop exercising their rights, when they allow the government to dictate behavior to them, that's when freedoms are lost.