Israel and Syria officially confirm indirect talks

The massacres at shatilla and sabra were inhuman at the very least and should have never happened. This is only one reason why th elebanese christian thought they had a new champion in general aoun. Aoun was the only christian during the civil war who fought the plo, the isrealis and anyone else who tried to destroy lebanon before syria invaded lebanon and almost killed him. When he came back from france its as if his body and mind had been taken over by syria or brainwashed. His stances did a complete 360 degree turn.

As far as the massacres in sabra and shatilla(tel al zataar), it was inexcusable but the kataib were retaliating for the massacre at damour
where the plo(back then called the pla) massacred a whole village of christian lebanese. They had heavy artillary against kids with hunting rifles. they not only killed them but mutilated the sign of the cross on their genital. No one was spared, even the priests were shot inside the churches. The katiab that were there in the massacres of sabra and shatilla all had relatives at dammour.

The plo were in lebanon and launching attacks against isreal on lebanese soil. How would u feel if there was a palestine and lebanese were launching attacks on another country from your soil, therefore endangering your countrymen. I would say you would really be tickeddddd offff. most of those katiab were on cocaine when they did those massacres because they killed with no conscience. I feel so sad and sorry for the palestinian women ,children and inocent civilains in those camps that got caught in the middle. God knows they didnt ask to be there. The plo had no right at all to launch those attacks on isreal from lebanese soil, and in fact what i also heard was that the plo was trying to get a deal brokered with the world powers to have a country within lebanon.
This would have satisfied the major players(america, Isreal, and the soviet union) and this is why alot of lebanese resisted. In fact hezbolla at the beginning were fighting against the plo if you know your lebanese civil war history.

Bashir wanted a pure western vision of lebanon, but i feel that vision was flawed because whether he and his men liked it or not lebanon was a middle eastern and an arabic country and i feel that he didnt take this into account.

Hobeika was even more brutal and his assasination could have been from either syria or isreal. That is one that most will never know. lebanon was caught in the middle and still is caught in the middle. None of the foreign country really give a rats behind about it.

 

What I know for sure, is that Palestinians were not, and are not looking for a country, they have their own country which is Palestine, I heard something like this about Jordan, in black September, but actually, the ones who say Jordan is Palestine, are the Zionists, not Palestinians.

as for Aoun, and Hizballah,and others, you will notice that each of these parties at some period of time, allied somebody who they fought before, or fought somebody who was their ally before, I believe this says that it was a fight over power, not over anything else as been said (unity of Lebanon, or Christians, Muslims, Shi'iti ... )

I m glad that war was over, its good to learn about it to take lessons to prevent it from happening again, not to keep blaming specially after they reached an agreement.

 

Funny i wonder why hezbolla was fighting the plo in lebanon before isreals first invasion of lebanon? I wonder why general aoun fought the plo? I wonder why many other factions fought the plo. My relatives were there when the plo setup checkpoints and shooting people at random in lebanon. Zionist this, zionist that. The plo were extremly brutal in lebanon and you wana know who were the first foreign group invited to lebanon to defend the lebanese against the plo? It wasnt isreal , it wasnt america. It was syria of all countries. This is a historic fact that both sides acknowledge. The plo wanted palestine back and at all costs no matter what country it destabilized in the process. Sure their homes were taken from them, but does that give anyone the right to destroy another country. There was no civil war before the plo came into lebanon. the first massacre in lebanon was by the plo in 1976(this is 6 years before the massacres at shatilla and sabra). The plo also killed many shiites in the south. The shiites were losing in soutgh lebanon against the plo , and isreal of all countries came in and saved them, not because it cared , but because of security reasons for isreal. Sectarian voilence didnt happen in lebanon at the start of teh civil war but morphed into it later on. It wasnt christian against muslim. It became muslim against muslim, christian against christian, christian against muslim and muslim against christian.

As i said before even the march 14th government now in place has thugs in it. None of the leaders of lebanon are angels, but at least these thugs understand now that they cant fight against each other anymore and gave up their arms.

Imad i really hope that syria and isreal reach an aggreement because to me that would signal peace next between isreal and the palestinians. I really dont think every palestinian is plo and i dont think every isreali has a right wing belief. I just pray and hope the moderates come together and finally learn to coexists side by side.

 

I really do not want to open old wounds, but please, make sure of the accuracy of your info, I know about the sensitivity that been found with the arrival of PLO, which added to the sensitivity that already been there and which broke into violence in 1958, in which US interfered to stop it, long before PLO comes there, and contrary to what you said that there was no civil war in Lebanon before the PLO come, not saying PLO were angels too, but you really, need to be more accurate, and not to point PLO PLO PLO even if you hate them, try to know what really happened, before they come.

again, same thing, please make sure of the accuracy of your info, what triggered the civil war was the assassination attempt of Pierre al-Jmayyel in April 1975, in which 4 Phalangists were killed, in the same day, and before any investigation take place, the Phalangists attacked a bus carrying Palestinians and was passing across Christian neighborhood, killing 26 Palestinians, because they thought the gunmen were Palestinians, its not known for sure till now who were the gunmen who tried to assassinate Pierre, Phalangists took the law in their hands, after only few hours, and attacked the bus.

This is all I will say regarding this, feel free to continue if you want, I will not go on more, the 1975 civil war ended, the new civil war which was about to start was stopped, and I m glad for this, I do respect PLO and Hizballah, and of course all the Lebanese parties, whether they are Christians, Shi'iti, and will always hope they will do the same to solve their problems as they did in Doha.

 

Please check your statement Imad and i can find teh fact that it wasnt the assasination of gemeyal that started it. It was actually the baby that was killed inside a church in ein il romainey that started the escalation between plo and lebanese. When i visited beirut in 1991 i was shown the teh area of where the church was and i was told by the residents there that this is what really triggered the escalation. I will do some reading up on the 1958 violence as that year never caught my attention. I dont hate the plo , but im sure there are many in lebanon that hated the organization. The organization was different from the palestinian people. I always supported them having a state of their own as every human being deserves to have a place called home, but the question here is how far would anyone go to get their home back. If it means starting a regional confrlict that could spill into ww3 i dont know if that is a price that is too high or not do you?

the best thing you could do is not ask me as i was born in america . My parents took us from new york in 1973 with the intent of living there for good, but a few smart relatives told them to leave and they did 6 months later. Talk to the lebanese people that live in lebanon about the plo and the random killings against shiit shiits in the south. Why do u think there was a large amount of shiites in the sla(south lebanese army). The shiites wetre fighting against the plo because of the atrocities committed against their villages. Ask them as they experienced these things themselves.
My parents consider themselves lebanese, i consider myself american because i grew up here.


Ok i read up on the civil strife of 1958 and that didnt last very long and it had more to do with the pan arab league of nasser and assad then anything else, completely different situation and this had nothing to do with the 30 year civil war that started in the 1970's. the pan arab league was dismantled long before
the 30 year civil war even started.

 

I do not have any info about ein il romainey, but it won't end if we started to say who started it first, as for 1958, the violence already broke into civil war at that time which took about 2000 souls before the intervention, the point I tried to say, that obviously there is a sensitivity, which is based mainly on the two different views, Lebanism, and Arabism, which makes the Lebanese community divided, and so weak and tend to turn to violence whenever there is a major event, like in 1958 events, and 70's events, and these days events, there was no real unity in Lebanon, and Lebanon failed the tests, in 1958, and the years after, and in 2008 until the meeting in Doha.

in every one of these events, you will find these two parts, sometimes they cover with religion, but its clear that religion is not the real reason, nor is the nationality, because, as you know, there were times, when Christians allied with Muslims against another Christian or Muslim party.

with that said, I kindly ask you, to close this page of the Lebanese history if the purpose of it is blaming.

 

And I am suprised but your comment on my answer. You sound like nice person judeging your posts but... Now you sound to me like: even you are with us or against us! Wrong is wrong no matter whos doing it. If anyone uses double standards it's those 60% of americans who supports Israel.

 

in 1948-1967, while the Gloan was under Syrian control, Syria bombed from the Golan the north of Israel almost all the time. a whole generation lived underground.
since 1974, it is the most quite border of Israel. since 1974 this border is quite. 34 years of peace.

the Golan is ours, forever!

 

It's 2008. and if anyone wants to bombard Israel he doesn't need Golan heights as we saw how Hezbollah did it so that argument for keeping stolen land is false.

The Golan is stolen land, forever.

Btw what north of Israel Syria bombarded? You mean part of Palestine you cleansed from Palestinians and stole from them?

 

Golan will not be yours forever . Of course you (israel) had stolen Golan today. But it is hard for your curroptioned govermant to give back Golan. I will be happy if I will make that thread about Golan heghts return I am waiting that, I hope Turkey will do what is possible to this.

Have a nice day

 

Its quite true, before 1974 it was not quite, Dayan tells why:

 

1. you don't know on what time he is talking about.
2. tractor is so dangerous?

I will not even refer to iggysick's words, because it's like broken record. "stolen land, stolen land". crying and yelling like always.

 

It's stolen land no matter how hard you try to deny it. You may cry all day long but it won't change fact that you expelled 700,000 Palestinians from their homes and stole their land. Tells loads about you and people who blindly supports you.

 

let me understand one thing: do you aware to the fact that we were on this land and on much more land(that today is Arab countries) a lot before the invention of Islam?

 

The fact that you been there before thousands of years, does not make you the right to steal other people's land by force, besides there were people before you who been on that land long before the invention of Zionism which came with this project of occupying, and much before Judaism.

 

1 - he was talking about Golan heights before Israel occupy it, and explaining why it was not quite there,

2- of course the tractor itself is not dangerous, but the tractors were on Syrian lands, why? it was a stealing process, if they did not reply, the land is ours, if they reply, we will launch war and the land is ours on both cases, Syrian were going to lose, its like: if "head" I win, if "tail" you lose, this is if you do not know it already, Israeli policy.

Besides, is a civilian airplane who by mistake, and in a sand storm entered the Israeli zone is dangerous? to a degree it should be shot down without even a warning? Israel did it.

 

Is someone been there before you? Do they have a right on that land than?

 

As a Jordanian citizen you must obey the معاهدة السلام الأردنية الإسرائيلية‎ (Israel-Jordan treaty of peace).

You are breaking Article 11:
Stop propaganda
To abstain from hostile or discriminatory propaganda against each other and to repeal all adverse or discriminatory references and expressions of hostility in their respective legislation.

Stop your Anti-Israeli comments or Ill call the local police

Long Live Israel!

‎

 

that was a joke, right?

but you reminded me with something:

Israel was the first to violate this treaty in 1996, in their attempt to assassinate a Jordanian citizen using a biological weapon, in which 2 Israeli mossad agents been caught.

p.s.: if you do not have the police number, its 191

 

In 1997, two Mossad agents were caught in Jordan, which had signed a peace treaty with Israel, on a mission to assassinate Sheikh Khaled Mashal, a leader of Hamas, by spraying him with poison at a pro-Hamas rally in Amman. Again, they were using fake Canadian passports. This led to a diplomatic row with Canada and Jordan. Israel was forced to provide the antidote to the poison and to release around 70 Palestinian prisoners, in particular the Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, in exchange for the Mossad agents, who would otherwise have faced the death penalty for attempted murder.


Mashal is todays Top-Notch leader of Hamas, I cant say he didn't deserve IT.

p.s - Ill have a call, as soon as I speak the language...