Texas Authorities Raid Polygamist Compound(400 kids taken from a polygamist compound)

I'm in agreement with Kaethy. Ultimately in my eyes the crime of rape, of pedophilia is amongst the most horrendous. Get exposed to the pain of women who suffered this as kids. Get a sense of the potential ugliness of the juxtaposition of very powerful adults and innocent children. It is horrendous.

The Texas law authorities have been tracking their suspicions on this group for 4 years. That is an incredibly long time weighed against the horror of the crimes.

They used one call to spur an investigation. Upon receiving a call they invoked the standard of probable cause, taken directly from the constitution to enable them to investigate their suspicions.

They are proceding with an effort to try and uncover if rape occurred.

The entire proceding is an exercise in trying to balance the rights of individuals with the protection of individuals who might have been harmed and the protections of society as we know it.

It is never a black and white perspective. Some see it that way. The appropriate effort to balance those efforts is never easy. In fact that is why there is a legal process, courts, ultimately grand juries and juries. That is a lot of effort to balance complex issues.

As we now know it there was either a real call for help, a possible nutcase call from a potential woman from Colorado. For those that are most afraid of government, and always likely to believe in conspiracy there could have been a plant to inspire the raid on the suspected rapists.

I would trust in a system that has 200+ years of well developed jurisprudence to try and sort all of the issues out. Over time courts and communities have made efforts and been successful at balancing abuses in rights from one side(the government) or the other (potential abusers).

Once the police take suspected perpetrators in custody they have been granted certain rights to further investigate. These rights have also been reviewed, adjudicated and tested again and again through legal systems in which judges, and juries of peers make their best efforts.

In view of the potential horror of the level of the potential crime, the time over which the Texas legal authorities waited, the ultimate action of a warning call after 4 years, I believe that weight is clearly on the side of probable cause.

I hope these young girls grow healthy. If there were cases of rape I hope they shut down the compound. If the authorities can't prove the rape cases the people of the compound will continue to live the way they have been living over the last few years in Texas.

 

Actually I am not sure if the government has overstepped it's powers in this case as of yet, I do see the potential is there. My comments before were more my general overview of siding even with the most disgusting individuals when it comes to basic rights, and why I do.

Especially if the children inside of the compound did not feel abused, and this supposed evidence did not come to light until they were forcefully removed from the compound. If they were abused I am glad they are being helped, I also in the same breath shudder to think the government can take any and all children, rounding them up, under such reasons. Especially even 'if' some were abused, that does not mean all were, yet all have been removed and separated.

 

I agree with your general sentiments, Grim. It is one reason I believe that even the most disgusting speech, or speech that troubles others, for example, should be accorded the same liberties afforded all.

I just don't see this as related to that general consideration, for reasons I, Earl, and Kaethy have shown.

The fact is that there are apparently dozens of underage pregnant girls in existence. Again, the state child welfare authority testified early on:

And I flatly cannot understand how anyone can construe anything other than that there does appear to be evidence - ample evidence - to reasonably conclude an immediate, serious danger - to all the girls - within the compound sect. And it hasn't just started, as Earl has shown quite well. The real issue to me is not that it has taken place, but why it hasn't happened sooner.

Untangling this will be a maelstrom. The fact is that the compound membership is secretive about familial lines, and it is a Gordian knot to figure out who "belongs" to whom. There is no way to untangle any of this without DNA testing, and there is no way to ensure further children aren't harmed but to temporarily choose this painful option. Painful, but necessary, it seems to me.

 

I don't think they would, this lifestyle is all they have known. I don't know if this example is a good comparison, but let's say while you were growing up, your dad hit you every day. All the adults around you act like it is normal and you have little contact with how other people live. As a child, you would probably just assume all children are getting hit every day. That child may not even recognize it as abuse until he gets away and discovers that it didn't have to be that way.

 

Whether you believe it is just or not, polygamy is currently against the law. You had better hold off for now on the gathering of your harem, until the law has been changed.

I don't like it either, but I believe some cases warrant it, this being one.

 

Completely agree, and well said, Rebecca.

I am not a fan of the confessional culture, in fact I loathe the salacious news bites off others' pain. But I guess it may help to say I have personal experience with this; both pedophilia and domestic violence. It's why I left home as a young teenager, and what I struggle with even now, in my 40's. It guts your self-esteem, even your identity; it fractures your life narrative and piecing it together, at least for this poster, takes a lifetime.

The fact remains that these kids need help, and the right thing is being done. Those poor children....I have no words at the moment.

 

Even if you think that a crime is committed, it only justifies legal actions against individuals that committed the crime and not the whole community. In order for anyone to be guilty of polygamy that person must marry different women legally. For example there is no law that forbids to have 5 girlfriends, have sex with all of them, live with them in the same house and have children by all of them. Is there any proof if any one in this group is guilty of polygamy? The problem here is not if the police should investigate the suspicions about different crimes, the problem is the way they are doing it and how they use group harassment and tramp all over individual rights.

 

Polygamy is not the crime. Sexual abuse of underage girls is the crime.

Several girls are mothers and or pregnant. That's the proof a crime was committed. None of the girls, or any of the sect members are alleging the girls are having sex with teenage boys.

Rather they have an established tradition of fake marriage, ludicrously called spiritual marriage, of underage girls with older men who are already married to other women.

The men who take the girls into their harem are guilty of sexual abuse, the parents of the underage girls are guilty for encouraging and permitting it, the ministers are guilty for performing their sick ceremony. In fact, their leader is in jail for this very thing. Other relatives who attend the ceremony would be guilty for not speaking out against it.

So every time this happens to an underage girl, at least 4 adults conspired to make it happen, and some stood by congratulating the poor girls instead of intervening on their behalf.

We don't know exactly how many underage girls were mothers and or pregnant, but it's several. For sake of this discussion, lets say it was a dozen, although I suspect it's more.

So for each girl victim, there are at minimum 4 adults directly responsible, and at least 4 more, grandparents, aunts or uncles, for a total of 8. So 8 guilty adults for 12 girl victims equals 96 guilty adults. But I believe there are more than 12 girl victims, and probably the adults are involved and or present in more than one instance.

That's a lot of guilt IMO. Isn't standing by silently while children are being abused a crime?

 

Similar justification used to level sanctions against Iraq that killed 500,000 children.

Once you starting thinking this way, no one has rights, if everyone is a suspect, all of the time.

Concern does not justify any and all actions.

 

Yet somehow Hugh Hefner seems to get away with it - i.e. polygamy -

 

I don't know, but at least Hugh checks ID for 18 and over.

 

True - and technically he's married to no-one - but the principle is the same.

 

Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch have been pregnant.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.

Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch. source

 

thanks for the update browntwn. Good thing the children were taken away from these filthy animals.

 

Visit almost any of high schools in south philly and you will find similar stats or even worse. The teenage pregnancy among blacks is 214 per 1000.
What you and other people here don´t understand is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Punishment should be given AFTER some one is found guilty and not before. Group punishment, harassement and tramping of individual rights is not the right way to investigate a crime or stop criminal activity just because there is a suspison or because you don´t approve of a life style´s of certain groups.

 

I don't see this as punishment. I see it as a declaration of imminent danger to these children, requiring immediate, if temporary, action. The same thing happens whenever a reasonable amount of evidence leads to a reasonable conclusion of existing, or imminent, danger. The scale of this case only makes it seem a breed apart, but it isn't - there is evidence these kids were very definitely being put in harm's way.

The judge did the right thing.

 

The SCALE of this case is exactly what makes it a group punishement. In a normal justice system, the children which were in danger should be identified and then the evidence be presented to a judge and those children be removed. May be I am an old fashion but I consider an attack by police to people home, search of the residents and removal of children as harassement and punishmnet and usually in a civilized society, individuals should be protected from such over reach by government but may be you think this was a fun experiance for this people or they just deserve it because of their life style or religion.

 

OK, let's stay with your thought on this. Let's bring the SCALE way down.

In a home with a mom, and a dad, and a mere two kids, a neighbor calls police, saying they believe they heard a child cry in (unnatural) pain, and were concerned about a child being abused.

The police arrive. They find concrete evidence of a crime being committed on the one child, but not on the other. Say, the one child has evidence of beatings. Or rape. Or torture. Or some other crime with evidence strongly suggesting it occurred on premises. Both parents deny any wrongdoing. Even the "unhurt" child denies anything wrong went on - not now, not ever.

What is to be done with both children, immediately? On a temporary basis, pending DCFS review?

 

Thank you. That is clear enough, I can't see how anyone could misunderstand it.

In a free society, the government cannot arbitrarily disobey the presumption of innocence, and arrest enough people that they are sure to find some guilty of a crime.

In my mind, it's a disturbing trend, where it's ok to violate the rights of one person to protect the rights of another.

 

Just as most others can't understand how you and Gworld can hold the position you do.

Happens all the time. For instance, with evidence of a guy who just raped a woman, he is arrested, and she is not. His rights are "violated," and hers are "protected."

I understand lawlessness is part of your thing, but precisely my point - laws, and their inherent due process exist, to ensure we in society have rules of play we can agree on.