ok, but still my question is valid, does that mean all Muslims countries are not modern, if so what makes them modern?
I agree with Maddog on this one, women should have the right to cover or not to cover upon prosecution or death. To modernize itself further the big imams should all condemn forcing any woman to do this and make it their choice. Dubai is a modern islamic country as you can dress anyway you want there. The other muslim countries should use Dubai as their example to start modernizing.
If you think you are disagreeing with me, I am not sure what point you are disagreeing with. Reading your post I am wondering if you read anything in the thread or just saw my name and wanted to disagree on something???
this is the case with most Muslim countries, women can wear as they want, except in Saudi and Iran, does that mean all Muslims countries are modern except Saudi and Iran?
Not killing someone because they don't accept your religion or obey your religious laws would be a start, but really the question would be for MaDog, I just think he might of meant modern, but I can't guarantee that.
while I appreciate your posts, this is even less clear, where in Islamic countries do they kill people for not accepting Islam? it only take a little search online to find the percentage of non-Muslims in each Islamic country.
I meant modern... but Iran is not normal country. even insane. to execute someone because he is a gay? to lock up people who dressed in west dress? you have to agree with me that this is insane..
In these Muslim countries are Muslims allowed to convert to another religion from Islam or are they forced by threat of death to remain Muslim?
@Madog, you keep bringing up Iran, Israel has problems with Iran, alright, but isn't it better if you keep it that way, and not use Islam as a shield to to attack Iran? I never saw anyone presenting Iran as a role model, so attacking a country with so many flaws is kinda choosing the easy way, like people call here; strawman.
Madness...? THIS... IS... ISLAM! (Apologies to King Leonidas.) Ibn Warraq provides a comprehensive writeup on apostasy from Islam in Islam, Apostasy, and Human Rights
this is also depends on the country, some may get, some may not, but again, we get back to the same question, if a country threats a convert, it means its not a modern? and if it does not threat a convert it means its a modern country, thats what I m trying to understand.
ok, by the way Dubai is not a country, but thanks for the example pingpong123 Dubai is an Emirah, you can say province, in a country called United Arab Emirates, its Islamic, and women are free to wear whatever they want, though most Muslim women there wear Hijab, its still a modern country. Afghanistan on the other hand, do you call it a modern country? what makes you think Islam is madness?
What I have a problem with is the morally repugnant laws which force people to act and behave in accordance with a religious doctrine.
The progress of human civilization has been going on for at least ten thousand years. "Modern" is a moving target. It is not black and white. Hell, at one time Islam itself might have been considered "modern" -- but that time has long passed. Muhammad denied Islam the power to change and grow. In doing so, Muhammad condemned Islam to certain death. In our current time, certain concepts and values have been found to be better than others. There is no comprehensive and indisputable list of these values. Usual lists include economic freedom, religious freedom, freedom of speech, self-reliance, limited government, etc... The ability to change religious without being executed seems to be an obvious requirement for a "modern" nation or a "modern" religion. Don't look for simple answers so that you can make simple arguments. Instead, search for the truth.
I agree there are some backward mentality in some Islamic country but what makes you think its Islam? can you give me some examples of such repugnant laws? I am not looking for simple answers thats why I am asking many questions, so far what I can understand from this threads, is Islamic countries will be modern if they abandoned Islam, is this what you mean?
A simple answer is this: Watch the news. You will see all sorts of madness -- with Islam as a core component. But that's not a satisfying answer, or you would have already reached enlightenment. Let's try a more direct path. Islam is madness because it denies two basic concepts which are required for mental health: Personal responsibility. Separation of self-identity from others. Islam denies the concept of personal responsibility. For example, under Islam the rape victim is blamed for her assault. This is insanity. It is mental illness to blame the young boys executed in Iran for their own murders. It is madness to blame Daniel Pearl for his own murder. Islam denies the separation of self-identity from others. Muslims do not accept that they should only control themselves - they are compelled by their religion to control all others. This is what leads them to murder homosexuals, apostates, teachers, journalists, and anyone who dares to think differently from them. Muhammad teaches that every unbeliever must be conquered (conversion is not necessary). Everyone must follow Islamic rules -- believer and unbeliever alike. This lack of understanding and respect for the individuality of other humans can only be correctly viewed as a mass mental illness. Abandoning Islam would certainly be one step in accepting modernity. However, there are many non-Islamic countries which are also suffering from bad ideas which create a series of ills including tyranny, poverty, injustice, ignorance, oppression, etc... Haiti, Cuba, Zimbabwe, and North Korea spring to mind as non-Islamic countries where bad ideas seem to outnumber good ones. Islam is just one bad idea. There are many more. Heck, we have a bunch of bad ideas here in the U.S., including gun control, class warfare, socialism, the war on drugs, taxation on production instead of consumption, punitive taxation for excessive production, etc... One thing that makes the "modern" world fundamentally different is it's acceptance of dissent and change. I may not like Hillary Clinton, but I'm not chopping her head off because she belongs to a different religious sect than I do.
ok, I read your post, and a simple answer for me, you are lacking proper knowledge about Islam if you only get your info about Islam from watching the news. I am not sure what you mean by enlightenment, but if its changing from Islam to something else than Islam for a Muslim, is considered enlightenment, then you need to offer a better replacement to Islam for that Muslim, when a Muslim go to the West for example, s/he is not looking for an alternative to Islam because life was hard where he came from, and at the same time is not looking to change the West to became same like the Islamic country s/he just left, I think we should look at the depth and not on the surface, there are things I admire in west, and there are things that I dislike in here, but in no way I blame Islam for these negativities in my country, there are some examples when some found better alternative, and converted to something else than Islam, but this does not mean that the rest 1.5 billion Muslims are keeping on their faith because they are afraid if they converted they will be killed, if this is true, then once this threat is gone, then all will start to convert from Islam, which means by example if we have a Muslim majority country, who force Muslims to stay Muslims, and which suddenly decided to give its Muslims citizens full religion freedom, then Muslims numbers in this country should start to decrease till there are no Muslims at all in that country. there are many Muslims countries that do not punish converters and still these countries have Muslims majority. No Islamic country lock its citizens and prevent them from traveling as communist did, another real example is Afghanistan women and borko, they have been shown in Western media as the example of the oppressed women, and in some way been used to justify a war, Taliban were gone and still we see Afghani women wear borko as been shown by some British reporters when the West expected them all to take off their borqo's and become a westernized women. we may not agree, and I do not expect you or anybody to agree with me but that does not mean I should not be able to say which I believe is the truth, there is nothing in Islam that calls to punish the victim, I live in an Islamic country, were the rapist may face execution in some cases and it happened before and nobody blamed the victim, I wished if you have provided a proof from Islam when you mentioned Islam blame the rape victim, for example, do you think, I would want to stay a Muslim for one minute if there is a verse in our holy book that says "if a girl been raped be a man then kill her and give hi 5 for the man" this is a bad thinking about Islam, I can understand from this that you think Islam is "evil" which is not true at all. and when you build such thinking about Islam being "evil" you paint all those who follow Islam of being evil, people here or in Afghanistan, or in Iraq, and even Saudi and Iran are not stupid, and they have minds and can distinguish the good from the bad. if Christianity been replaced by a new concept in the west, or if it been edited to keep up with the changes, it does not mean Islam should be replaced or edited, Islam does not lack of the good morals, but Muslims and sadly saying somtimes lack of the good manners ( i mean here they act badly), so do not let this make you blind and prevent you from having a close look at Islam in your eyes not the media eyes, you can approach your Muslims neighbor, you can even visit a Muslim country, and you can read and research and ask, you will find many ignorant people, there is a difference between what Muslims do and Islam, Christianity and Islam are not the same else they would have the same name either Islam or Christianity, I believe Christianity lost its value in the West, even third world countries like in poor Africa refuse it to be dumped on them. The same you said I can say it about the West now, there are many from the West who convert to Islam, its true they are not being killed or threatened, but they are being treated badly because they decided to go to what they believed will be better alternative for them. They are being chased in Media, online, in streets, with looks, Fitna, cartoons, and sometimes get harmed, the women get their veils pushed, I have seen it on TV, its their freedom, nobody forced them, there is no Mid Eastern man there threatening them that if they did not wear it they will get beaten!
I feel very sad regarding the fate of people who are born, live, and die as victims of Islam. There is no greater joy in life than to live as an individual. You make your own choices and you live or die by them. The entire world is your sandbox. It is the true meaning of freedom. I know that freedom of choice can be frightening to those who are unaccustomed to it. The responsibility to think for yourself is a heavy burden for weaker minds to bear. And yet, this is the true place of mankind in the Universe. To live as a slave to some imaginary god is to not live at all -- it is simply to exist until the sands of time mercifully wash over you and erase you from painful existence. I do not say that all men and women must experience such joy as I feel. Many are not strong enough for this. However, I do say that religions which make it impossible for self-selected men and women to experience the joy of freedom are inherently evil. Islamic law does not allow freedom of thought, freedom or speech, or freedom of action. As such, it is inherently evil. My sympathies go out to every individual soul which is crushed by living in Dar al Islam.
I feel sympathy for you too and I wish that someday you will be able to see the other as an individual and human who has mind and able to make his own choice, and who were not afraid to learn other religions than Islam ( not by watching news) and thank God that he is a Muslim, Peace.